Today I waited for a while at Sackville and Queen East for a westbound streetcar that never came. So I started walking — all the way to CityTV — and not one streetcar came my way. I’d feel better if this was an isolated incident, but I’ve routinely walked as long on College/Carlton and Dundas without a streetcar. This great Electric Company bit where Morgan Freeman plays “Mayor Thayer” signing about the subway might as well be called “Nobody loves the TTC,” because I certainly don’t today.
With all the recent talk about Toronto’s new subway-less Transit City plan, this song could apply to Toronto’s current feeling towards new subways. Despite all the justifications from LRT supporters, I can’t help but feel a little sad (and maybe depressed) that new subways aren’t being considered anymore. It’s like we’ve given up.
(Thanks to grecomic for spotting this)
28 comments
Shawn, you make a good point. We’ve all experienced the mysterious black-hole of streetcar service.
The TTC’s proposed plan will be nothing short of useless unless they make a firm commitment to reexamine the reliability of their LRT services and look at what can be done to improve service. While all the routes you mentioned have streetcars operating in mixed traffic (universally acknowledged as the worst of all possibilities), it’s essential that the TTC look at options for those routes as well as the new routes they intend to build, since it seems like they intend to plan for massive expansions while they barely have their current house in order.
On the Spadina route, the fact that the streetcars have no ability to influence the timing of traffic signals is preposterous (they’ve even done this in York Region for the Viva bus routes!) – watching packed streetcars wait through long light-cycles only to have to wait for cars to turn left before finally being able to discharge passengers at the far side of the intersection is an embarrassment and an argument against the efficiency of even exclusive right-of-way LRT.
At the very least, let’s pioneer some digital signage on streetcar routes (again, VIVA in York Region already has this) letting those waiting at a stop know how long until the next streetcar. While this doesn’t solve the reliability problem itself, the sheer embarrassment the TTC would suffer from having the signage at their stops indicate that the next streetcar is 30 minutes away when it shouldn’t be more than 10 would surely prompt some kind of action if only because it would give riders a concrete basis for their anger (all you would have to do is start photographing the signage showing wait times and post them somewhere and the TTC would eventually have to respond).
Sad, yes, but at least it has its own theme song now. That’s certainly an improvement, isn’t it?
Buck up, Shawn. The new transit strategy shouldn’t be seen as anti-subway. Toronto, at its present density, can’t afford more subway lines, even in its downtown core. The strategy will get more people on transit, increase density in the inner suburbs, and create new reasons to build subway lines in the future. While, yes, it may be giving up on subways in the short term, getting more people in the system is the best argument for getting more funding for subways long term. As an added bonus, some lines (like the Eglinton line through midtown) will be streetcars that run underground. Wheeeeeeee!
I feel the same way. LRTs are good, and if they actually get built, they will definetly improve service, but the subway I still feel is the best investment we can make. They’re expensive, but they’re an investment in our future, and will last for decades to come. I feel like we should always be building subways – its not going to get any cheaper to build them, and they really do provide the most convienient mode of public transit for commuters…
If ever a new subway line was to be built it should be under Queen, as originally proposed way back when – as the roughed-in “ghost” station at Queen & Yonge shows. It should run the full length of Queen. *sigh*
ps. Chris N, we’re talking LRVs, not streetcars for Eglinton, no? The confusion makes it a tougher sell cuz apparently people don’t love streetcars too much.
I should point out something regarding the traffic signal issue on the Spadina tram/streetcar/LRT (all the same thing!) line. When it was built over a decade ago, the line was equipped with the latest in traffic signal technology; namely, the line already has the capability to detect every streetcar that runs on it and change the traffic signals to green when they approach, effectively ensuring that streetcars never have to wait for a red light. Unfortunately, the people at the City’s Transportation Services department, who control Toronto’s traffic signal network, have never turned the system on. In other words, the capability is already built-in on Spadina, but they don’t want to pull the switch, for fear of causing automobile traffic and angering the left-turning drivers.
I recently spoke to councillor Joe Mihevic, who has been the big proponent of the new St Clair line, and I have his assurances that the new transit priority signalling system on St Clair, the exact same one as was installed on Spadina, will be activated within a couple of weeks on the section of the line that has been rebuilt.
For the sake of demonstrating the TRUE potential of streetcars on dedicated rights-of-way (which we’ve so far not seen), let’s hope that we don’t have to wait over a decade on St Clair like we did on Spadina (and by the way, the Spadina system still hasn’t been switched on, so some public pressure on that front could help a lot).
Christopher> Bucked up! I had my come-uppance last night. I was at Sackville and Gerrard heading for Queen and Broadview. I was going to take the streetcar to Broadview and walk down, unless I saw a King car. The driver of the car that came by warned me that he was actually a King car, and he’d be going down Broadview. So it took me exactly where I wanted to go. A rare occurance though.
As for not being able to build subways…Toronto did it in the 50s/60s/70 — when Toronto was much less dense. I think we could have the same argument then, but for some reason, they didn’t.
Robin> It also astounds me that cars can make left hand turns anywhere on a streetcar route. It seems elementary. I know there are the Case Oates out there who would fight this sort of thing, but I can’t help but think the TTC didn’t fight enough to make the case that they need simple things like this to run properly. Looking at their many PR blunders, including how they’ve introduced the idea to make King streetcar only (or however it will be configured) that got all those business’s defensive immediately, I wonder if they can actually articulate their needs properly. It’s risky to suggest incompetence, but when you see where the place blame for lateness — on passengers! — I’ve lost faith.
I used to live right on Bloor, took the subway, loved the TTC. In the last year I moved down to Queen, and have grown increasingly frustrated with the streetcar service. I never see the ‘frequent service’ the schedule claims to be running. Instead, it’s always a case of three streetcars in a row followed by a half-hour gap. I’ve honestly considered getting a car and driving because of it.
Most frustrating was one night where, at Osgoode station, I waited about half an hour without seeing a streetcar. I started walking, and walking, and walking, and made it as far as Queen and Jones without seeing a single streetcar! That’s well more than an hour with no service whatsoever. Of course, after that about six streetcars passed in quick succession.
Fixing streetlight timing would certainly help on some routes. There’s that pedestrian signal between the Eaton Centre and the Bay which ALWAYS seems to turn red just as a streetcar approaches, adding another minute to the delay. The strip between Spadina and Queen on Friday/Saturday night is especially bad, and the city should consider making it Taxis/TTC only on those nights. They should short-turn streetcars when there’s large clumps of them – but they should short turn the first car, not the last like they currently have a habit of doing.
As the service currently stands, I really wonder how many people will switch to LRT from their cars, if they consistently have to wait more than 20 minutes in the cold for a train.
About the roughed in station at Queen and Younge it is actually an underground streetcar station.
Hm. What time was it? I was on the subway last night and we went right through an unlit Queen Station (where I wanted off) without stopping, meaning the subway wouldn’t have helped you much, either.
After I got off at King Station instead, I found out it was because of the massive power failure in the downtown core. Not much anyone could have done.
bunched up service is also a huge problem with bus routes, especially because the 2nd, 3rd & 4th buses in a convoy will sometimes skip past an overcrowded stop when the first bus stops. i waited at dundas & ossington for the ossington bus for about 25 minutes in the dead of winter, as approx. 30 other people gathered. when the buses finally arrived, the first (half full) bus stopped while the other two (empty) ones rushed past. who couldn’t fit on the bus? me, a woman with a baby carriage, and a man with his 6-yr-old daughter. i walked from dundas to bloor without being passed by another bus. thanks for nothing, ttc.
Skye: Seriously. And what’s up with a stop at York Street? It’s like ten seconds from University! When the streetcar stops there, the light ALWAYS turns red. Always. It drives me crazy if I’m going to Osgoode and have to wait an extra light cycle to get off.
There is no justification for any subway construction at this point in Toronto, given current density.
Mike> What was Toronto’s density in 1954? Or 67? Or 77? This was an intensely low rise city until the 1960s when the Modern project built the highrises.
And what will it be like in 15 years, when a subway we start planning today might be complete, and those 1.5 million or so expected people move into the city?
“As for not being able to build subways…Toronto did it in the 50s/60s/70  when Toronto was much less dense.”
Less dense – no, not compared to the outlying areas where subway extensions are now planned.
here’s a simple solution to the streetcar problem: get rid of them and replace them with buses, that way when there’s a problem somewhere along queen it doesn’t affect service on the entire route. it also solves the left turn problem because a bus has the added feature of being able to change lanes and detour around problems. it makes no sense to run streetcars in mixed traffic, and perfect sense to run buses.
i remember a few years ago when they were rebuilding the tracks all the way along queen and replaced the streetcar with bus service, it was noticeably faster to get from downtown to the beaches.
It’s useful to hear of transick tales, and yes it is trans*it sometimes. It won’t be helped by letting the Gardiner cars get off at Bathurst St. with the FSE and we still collectively have this as a viable project though no transit options beyond a WWLRT have ever been thought of. This doesn’t serve existing demand and Steve Munro has speculated that we’ll be raiding existing routes for the streetcars for it. The biggest problem I tend to have with the TTC is streetcar tracks as I tend to bike around most everywhere, but we can’t put bike lanes everywhere because of the streetcar tracks, and so the TTC keeps customers eh?
Aaaarrrgggh! Hamish — I read your comments on this blog, and while I agree with a number of your comments, your horrible horrbile horrible puns undermine your points. “transick”, carruption”, etc. You sound like Ned Flanders, and while Ned was certainly a good guy, he was also insufferable.
And why would you bring up the FSE in this post? Its probably because you bring it up in every other comment you make on this blog as long as the topic is ever-so remotely close to your pet peeves.
If you have something important to say (AND YOU OFTEN DO) say it, but your tendency to try and twist discussions your way can be annoying as hell.
Morgan Freeman rocks! I use to think Shawshank was his best work, not anymore.
There is a “subLRT” from Keele to Laird on Eglinton in the TTC Transit City proposal (no money and no definite alignments so it can’t be called a “plan”)
A similar subLRT from Roncesvalles to Broadview via the roughed in Queen Station could be considered for the Queen streetcar – however even the roughed in station might have to change to accommodate the latest generation trams.
A full blown subway would cause huge development and the dreaded gentrification so there would be a lot of opposition from various parties who believe that the city shouldn’t evolve. Making it a subway line would also mean a required transfer from the rest of the existing Kingston Road/Long Branch streetcars – keeping it tram could allow a Queensway car to Sherway as an alternative to extending the Bloor subway.
Shawn wrote:
And what will it be like in 15 years, when a subway we start planning today might be complete, and those 1.5 million or so expected people move into the city?
No, Toronto’s population increased by only .9% in the last five years. If present trends continue, the population will likely go down between now and 2010. Despite all those condo towers you see, the city of toronto has probably entered its ‘decline’ phase, something most Northeastern US cities saw in the 70s and 80s.
(That said, LRT in the inner suburbs of Toronto are probably the best hope for averting the coming decline. Save Scarborough Now!)
Neil: The bus service was better because it was the summer when traffic is generally lighter (when most rail replacement projects are done.)
There’s a psycological association with rail vehicles, people are more inclined to rely on a route served by rail vehicles than buses. Also, rail vehicles have a much higher capacity than buses. Its not the streetcars that are the problem, its those damn single-occupant vehicles.
I didn’t see the announcement as giving up on subways. For that to be true we’d have to seriously believe we’d get a subway system half as extensive. I think we all like to delude ourselves with fanciful subway maps but we know that they are just that fanciful.
The problem is the idea of the TTC running a non-subway service well also appears fanciful. It’s not something they’ve shown they can do. The subways run like clockwork, you don’t gripe over seeing the tail light of a train diapering down the tunnel because you know the next train will be along in just a few minutes. But the streetcars don’t run well, and what’s worse the TTC doesn’t seam to care.
I think the streetcars are something special to Toronto and I’d rather see a streetcar on the street than a bus any day, but too often all there is to see is the tracks.
Has anyone noticed that all the best neighbourhoods are on streetcar lines? It’s because they make frequent stops and are visually connected to the neighbourhood – travellers see what’s there and they can hop on and hop off.
Subways are great for the heavy lifting backbone of the system. But it makes sense to build streetcars and LRT reaching out into most neighbourhoods, especially if we want to cultivate the kind of invigorating urban environment that Spacing advocates.
People like Shawn Micallef who like the look of subway lines on a map never consider the real factors at play. And this city is worse off for it.
When have I ever said anything about “the look of subway lines on a map”?
I can think of a lot of “best Toronto neighbourhoods” that are on subway lines. If you advocate LRT, which is fine, do it for real reasons.
I did give a “real reason”: with their closely placed stops, streetcars are better integrated into the neighbourhoods they run through. There are clear benefits: more Jane Jacobs-esque “eyes on the street” and continuous, human-scale development instead of big developments around subway stations.
Subways are great – they zip people across the city much faster than surface transit. But when we build subways today, they cost A LOT more than LRT. And the hidden cost is the huge annual operating subsidy for new lines still building demand: the Sheppard subway is subsidized at a rate of about $4/ride! Imagine the extra service the TTC could run on overcrowded routes elsewhere if it didn’t have to spend so much subsidizing those Sheppard riders in one corner of the city.
The best model for building a transit city is to upgrade busy bus corridors to streetcar/LRT. In a few years, when those streetcar/LRTs are bursting at the seams, THEN we’ll build subways to meet the demand. After all, that’s why the Yonge line and the Bloor line are so successful. They started out as streetcar lines. And when the streetcars became so frequent and packed that they couldn’t handle the demand any more, they were upgraded to subways. And the subway didn’t need much of a subsidy because the demand was there. We would be wise to follow that example – it makes financial sense, and it’s the model that gave us the most urban and vibrant parts of Toronto.
Shawn, you do a lot of good work, and a lot of people listen to you. That’s why I think it’s important you don’t present an LRT vision as something that makes you “sad” that we’ve “given up”. Yes, the city and TTC need to do a much better job of providing fast, frequent streetcar service. Yes, it will be wonderful to build more subways when it makes sense to do so. But it’s the focus on subways as the solution that has brought Toronto from a continental leader in public transit in the 60s and 70s to the creaky system we have today.
FS> That’s an argument I can understand and talk about. I’m still “sad” — it’s the honest feeling I get. It’s not just based on “wanting a fancy subway map” though.
You’re right, that was pretty random. Sorry.