[Update: Councillor Carroll has issued a clarification that appears at the bottom of this post]
Councillor Shelley Carroll has been the representative for Ward 33 Don Valley East since 2003. Councillor Carroll got her political start as a parent activist in North York fighting the Mike Harris cuts to education. In 2000, Councillor Carroll beat off an incumbent trustee to win election on her first try. By 2002, the savvy Liberal was leader of the Need to Succeed
bloc of Toronto District School Board trustees, serving as co-chair of the Board.
Since arriving at City Hall, the mother of two and grandmother of one has been a rising star. As a rookie, Councillor Carroll aimed to get a well-rounded experience. That led her to the key post of Works Committee chairperson, a member of the Budget Committee and Toronto Film Board, and chairperson of the youth section of the Mayor’s Roundtable on Children, Youth and Education.
A consistently strong performer, Councillor Carroll was tapped by Mayor David Miller to chair the Budget Committee following her re-election in 2006.
Councillor Carroll made time to speak with me in Council Chambers yesterday evening about the recently released 2008 operating budget.
Adam Chaleff-Freudenthaler: What is the significance of this budget in the history of the amalgamated City of Toronto?
Shelley Carroll: What’s significant is the degree to which we have control over the new revenues in the budget. (The funds) are ours to spend on municipal concerns.
The new budget process that we’ve been trying to move to is also significant. Which is we’ve had negotiations with the province and now we’re bringing forward a real and viable budget.
For Spacing we’ve got a reader who can grasp this: We’ve been caught between wanting a perfect model of consultation — the Puerto Alegre model of complete participatory budgeting — while not having a budget that is completely within our control (because of provincially mandated programs). So we’ve pretended to have consultation to hear about what to spend on but while we’re doing that we’re trying to close the gap (between revenues and expenditures) back at City Hall through internal means.
As we went forward, the Listening to Toronto exercise became disingenuous. I didn’t think that was suitable. So we used a different model where we say “Look, this is a very tight budget so let’s show you the finished product. This is how we closed the gap and here’s the tax increase, all rolled up into one. Now tell us if we got it right — we’d like to give you everything under the sky but we can’t so tell us if we struck the right balance.â€
Given our work, I think this is a more genuine dialogue to go to councillors and the community with.
ACF: Which new spending initiatives are you most proud of within this budget?
SC: One of the smallest investments in there. It doesn’t matter if you live in the suburbs or down at the waterfront or anywhere in between. It’s only half a million dollars. It’s 12 full-time equivalents in the planning department. That’s the beginning of what I hope is a phased investment in neighbourhood planning and urban design. These FTEs will go to doing the heritage studies and urban design work that Council asked for. Next we need to back them up with more expertise in our legal department and other supporting areas.
This is something that people are asking for and with targeted investment like this we can really start to achieve our goals. If we don’t invest in things like urban planning, that’s the kind of thing that has a ripple effect decade after decade. Without it we aren’t able to properly absorb population growth and provide growing neighbourhoods with the services they need.
The other area (I’m proud of) is economic development. This is actually quite timely. Not only because we’ve introduced the Prosperity Agenda but also because we know the work that needs to be done in economic development has to be done in the short-term. We’ve seen a hint of it already — we’re headed for an economic downturn and we’ve been so underfunded that we’ve got nothing to go on if we’re going to keep businesses here and attract new ones.
Those are two good areas to start and I think with what’s in (the budget) we’re doing that.
But I’m also proud that we’re getting to a better (budget approval) process. We’re giving people time to dialogue with their councillor on what is a viable proposal.
ACF: You’ve called this budget “ridiculously modest.” Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?
SC: I’m actually scratching my head on that one. I read that in the paper this morning but I absolutely do not remember saying (ridiculously). I don’t know where he got it from. I’ve said that the budget is very modest. It is. What I’m saying is that (the budget has) very modest investments if you look at new spending next to the entire $8 billion budget.
We’ve saved $116 million in this budget. The new spending makes up $53 million and of that only $12 million is off the property tax. So I don’t remember using the world ridiculously but that is pretty darned modest that only $12 million (of increased spending) is drawn directly out of property tax.
If the province ever comes through with a real upload then we might be able to sit down with the community and say, “Okay, here’s some new money. Where should we go with it?â€
ACF: Can you speak to the process of restraining spending in the City budget?
SC: How it happens is that as soon as we pass a budget, Budget Committee will sit down with staff and ask them to look at whether we have the ability to set a (spending increase) target of zero per cent for the next year. The answer has been No in the last couple of years because we’ve cut and we’ve cut and we’ve cut and now there’s nothing left to save. So after that we look at how much we can restrain the costs. Shirley (Hoy) and Joe (Pennechetti) then take all the projects and vet them without councillors present to try to find all the efficiencies they can. Then (Hoy and Pennechetti) give them to us and we boil it down to what our wants are and what our needs are. After we whittle those down further. And this year we also started by saying to every department “This is what you did for cost containment, can you keep these?â€
The reason that it’s been hard to keep departments to zero per cent increases is a number of things. This will be the first year we’re on a new fuel contract so unlike before we’re feeling the skyrocketing fuel prices for the first time. We’ve got labour contracts and we also just finished settling all the legal disputes over wage harmonization with CUPE 79 and 416 that affects many workers. So that’s why it’s hard to realistically ask for zero. But if you take out the wages, we try with some departments for a negative so everything but wages comes in at less than last year. But not everyone can do that without compromising the services residents want.
ACF: This budget has been criticized for proposing a residential property tax increase of 3.75%, which is above the CPI rate of inflation and, according to some, beyond what the Mayor promised in his 2006 election platform. How do you respond to that?
SC: Well I haven’t said this to anyone yet but we’re talking about the Spacing reader here: If I wanted to be glib, 3.75% is the residential, 1.25% for the commercial. What does that work out to? Two point five percent, which is inflation. So there’s a ratio issue here but, in fact, this is an inflationary increase. So if we don’t see “in line†as a qualifier and we’re married to 2.4% as inflation then, in the purest of terms, this actually is an inflation increase.
But the Mayor does make that promise in his campaign and he can continue to do that but the role of the Budget Committee is to query every department of the City on whether they’ve made the greatest number of efficiencies they can while still living up to their bargaining unit contract, lived up to Council’s priorities to the ability that they can and lived up to the Mayor’s mandate to the ability they can. If that’s been done and the Budget Committee is convinced that we have all the savings and efficiencies we can get then we hand it over to the Mayor and tell him that we need a certain property tax increase to make it work. Then it’s up to him to say okay or turn it back since (the Budget Committee) is a creature of (the) Executive Committee.
ACF: What would be the consequence of limiting the residential property tax increase to the CPI inflation rate of 2.4%?
SC: I think residents know what we would have to sacrifice because they’ve seen it. It was cost containment. And every cost that we contained that was a cut to a direct service the community went wild. While we offer lots of different services, most are already offered at the economy model because we’ve been so strapped for cash for so long. So no one already thinks they have a particularly generous amount of service with their two leaf pick-ups per year or once every other week garbage collection.
So if people want us to go down to 2% then sacrificing these services would be the cost. But we heard again and again and again over the summer — in places like Etobicoke, where some councillors think that everyone wants everything cut — “I will pay for service, Mr. Mayor, but I want service; I want better service.â€
So what’s in this budget? The first rollout of operational staff for 3-1-1 and 3-1-1 is the only way we’re going to improve service (in the current fiscal framework).
ACF: Why is it important to spend money on a new stingray exhibit for the Toronto Zoo in a “modest” budget?
SC: When staff said “Here are some things you might want to highlight,†I said, “The new stingray touch tank? Really?†But the reason they wanted to highlight that was because it goes to show that if you make a little investment, they know from the business plan and from all the new attractions they’ve done before, that you get a rollout revenue of $1 million a year for two or three years just from that small investment. It’s easy to promote; heck it’s already being promoted through this budget. It only costs $930,000 and we’ll get back $1 million in year one.
ACF: If the province were to upload all $750 million of the services that have been downloaded on the City, what would your top three priorities be for that money?
SC: (Long pause) You know what? These guys (councillors) will have shopping lists of their own but you know what I’d do? I’d have a year where we’re not allowed to spend any new money (on new services). What we’re going to do is put a lot of it into reserves and we’re going to take a little chunk of it and have people come in and do an operational audit on those areas that we’re delivering on the ground services and look at where we are. Did we get rushed into things with the private sector that maybe aren’t what we wanted to do? And who’s doing what right now? And have we been keeping certain departments together with chewing gum and duct tape? Just tell us what the consequences have been from operating in a climate of such fiscal restraint. Spend a year doing that. Get a few third party people in here to do it with us before we start just throwing money in the streets. That’s my fear: if the whole upload came at once that we’d just start tossing money in the street.
So if we put it into a reserve — interest bearing — then we could get the audit and prepare ourselves for targeted investment. Let’s get it right, let’s not make a bigger mess as a result of getting the money.
ACF: This year is the first year that the City has received its annual one-time provincial funding in advance of the launch of the budget process. Later this year, the most recent Who Does What provincial-municipal review will report out. How do you expect these two developments to impact future budgets and budget processes?
SC: There’s a few things. Even if the province had a sudden turn of nastiness, they’re on the hook now for the Ontario Drugs and Ontario Disability Support Program. That amount doubles next year to $76 million — $80 million with increases for inflation. So we get that. We also have the revenue tools for next year too so that’s more like $250 million next year instead of the $175 we got this year. So there’s a certain sum of money we already know is coming to us.
What they brought to us in terms of the (one-time) transit funding this year, if they allow us to keep it in operating, that would get us back to the Bill Davis formula of 50%. Now we’re just waiting for them to say that this is how they will address transit every year. And I’d be very surprised if they couldn’t. I’d like to have a meeting with the auditor if they can’t because now we’ve been given that money for three solid years in a row so if they suddenly don’t have it, I’d like their auditor to tell me where it went. So let’s make it permanent funding and stop playing whether this “will Dad give us our allowance this week” game.
I really hope that Spacing readers will hit the budget web site and use that as a resource and for consultation. I think this really goes towards being more honest with people since it’s showing the whole package and not just telling people we have control over our budget when we don’t really.
And also, I want to tell people to get in touch with their councillor. People all over town should be asking for a meeting with their councillor to talk about the budget. All the councillors have been given a communication package to help them talk to their residents so if they want to have a meeting they have all the graphics for a kick-ass PowerPoint. Really, talk to your councillor, get 16 people together, let (the councillor) hear what you want and have the discussion about what to do if we get that big upload.
Clarification [Updated: Wednesday, January 30, 2008, 2:40PM]
Upon reviewing her comments in this post, Councillor Carroll has issued a clarification of her statement regarding the legitimacy of the Listening to Toronto consultations.
While the City’s struggle with its finances under downloading had begun with amalgamation, we had good reason to embark on the ‘Listening to Toronto’ eight stop consultation tour in 2004. New leadership in the Mayor’s office and 14 new Councillors generated a need to invest time in major community consultation in an open format as part of a process to establish new Council priorities.
In the second year, the question of whether or not ‘Listening to Toronto’ felt like a pretend consultation came directly from participants in the process – our communities. Council had established a set of 9 priorities to guide the budget process and policy development. But we were still, as we are today, on the hook for many provincially downloaded social services and legislative responsibilities. As a result, participants commented at the second round of consultations that the city had so little flexibility that the point of a comprehensive consultation on budgeting was not clear.
This year’s budget website and the budget binders available for review at City Hall represent a proposal for a viable budget ready for balance. In my view, these are the most meaningful tools for consultation given the magnitude of the financial constraint the city still faces. So much dialogue has taken place community-wide that I believe Toronto residents can give excellent feedback on a detailed proposal for a balanced budget. Further, I believe that community members should begin a dialogue on what new form of civic engagement they want to demand of their City council should our improved financial structure materialize in time for the Budget Process for 2009.Shelley Carroll
City Councillor – Ward 33
Don Valley East
100 Queen Street West
2nd Floor – Suite A14
Toronto, ON M5H 2N2
(416) 392-4038
(416) 392-4101 (fax)
councillor_carroll@toronto.ca
Photographs courtesy mlostracco and City of Toronto
22 comments
I would love to see that “kick ass powerpoint” presentation!Wonder if Joe Pantalone will have a community meeting? Hmmmmmmm, probably not.
The presentation, press release, and video of the launch are all linked from the main page of the city’s budget website:
http://www.toronto.ca/toronto-budget/
Great interview!
I like that Carroll seems candid and open. She also seems to highly regard Spacing readers, which is nice to see.
I have often thought about who should be next mayor after Miller — while Vaughan may be good, and Thompson and Stintz may have ambitions, its Carroll who could be the uniter of Toronto. A moderate, suburban woman who is strong , smart, and progressive as they come is the perfect candidate.
Of course Caroll loves spacing magazine the free press during the election for miller and the unadultered buttering of the public to gain their vote was priceless.Unfortunately she can spin the bull, but in the end property owners will have to carry the financial burden of out of control spending by this council.
Thanks Ryan for the link the presentation is excellent for the already converted bunch who support this councils madness.Unfortunately it does “kick the ass” of the taxpayers of toronto.So much for political promises,Lie to get in ,then Lie to stay in!
George: “free press” for Miller? The magazine reported on the election and talked to Miller (as well as Pitfield and numerous candidates all around the city). Did you even read John Lorinc’s columns? They were constantly critical of Miller.
And then all you can respond to in from this post is that city council spending is “out of control.” Not one policy alternative from you, the loudest whiner and sorest of losers. Did you even read this post? Carroll even suggested NOT SPENDING ANY NEW MONEY FOR A YEAR if they get uploaded to the province. How is this an out of control council?
My lord. Spacing provides a forum for discussion and takes the time to sit down with officials to get reasoned answers. The paper’s don’t do this nor does any other publication in Toronto for that matter. If it wasn’t for Spacing no one would even know of George Sawision and his moronic, baseless and often slanderous comments.
lolol Its not my opinion but that of many others who don’t get any coverage at all.It was called the invisible election!
I feel sorry for the ratepayers who were fooled by lies to re-elect this bunch.
Sorry to remind you I ran to try to stop this very issue of a tax hike beyond the cost of living and the outrageous spending and borrowing spree that is the norm at the hall.
And please ….nobody would know me if it wasn’t for spacing?really?please elaborate.
Taxpayers fool themselves George.
And I had never heard of you before you started posting here.
Personally, I can’t stand most of the right-wing members of Council who seem merely interested in polarizing discussion … but I also think way too many media outlets (including SPACING) give Miller and Co. a free ride. Too many media outlets seem to function as little more than extensions of his PR department. This “interview” reads as little more than a puff piece, with a interview-subject being lobbed one soft-ball after the other. What about some questions that suggested a bit more critical analysis about budget decisions reached? “Carroll seems candid and open”? Yeah, right. Sorry, but readers deserve better.
Sam
It is rather disingenuous for Spacing readers to suggest they have never heard of George Sawision.
After all, this is a man who captured 0.85% of the popular vote (332 total votes) in Trinity Spadina 2007. Political pundits covering the provincial election deemed Mr. Sawision’s defeat “as close a race as they’ve ever seen” in reference to his narrow loss to Rosario Marchese who received a mere 15870 votes.
http://www.cbc.ca/ontariovotes2007/riding/096
Sam:
It was a Q&A, not an analysis piece. This is the first piece I’ve seen in any media outlet that takes the time to ask the real questions and doesn’t have to conform it to newspaper space, etc.
If anything, you cannot get the kind of info you get in this post if you go attack-dog style on the politician.
In journalism, you go hard on politicians in opinion and analysis columns. This is neither. It is a great example of how a publication can provide a nuanced approach to articles — not everything has to be opinion-based. And since this is just the proposal (released the other day) its good that Spacing didn’t provide instant analysis. Feedback from other groups, politicians, etc, is vital for a budget.
The last thing I see is a fluff-piece. Rather its makes it clear what the city is trying to accomplish. There seems to be little, if any, editorializing in this post. Good for Adam.
Milo,
when someone is interviewing someone, I don’t think that there are only 2 alternatives — either being soft or going into attack mode… Sorry, but when I read an interview of a public official regarding a particular decision,I expect to see a little more than the standard key messages that could be found in the news release or news backgrounder put out interview subject’s PR people.
Supposedly, this is supposedly a piece on the budget and I don’t see any reference to the new “revenue tools” and whether the imposition of these new tools is rendering the Mayor’s “close to inflation property tax increase” a hollow promise. I’m not saying I am for or against the new measures (and in fact, I think it was a foolish promise to start with)… but I think given the more complete picture with the new revenue tools (which the interviewer doesn’t even bother to go into), it is more than a little disingenuous for anyone to suggest anyone was even close to maintaining a promise.
Another area which the interviewer might have liked to maybe ask some questions about is whether budgets of the past few years (during Miller’s term but also extending back into the Lastman years) in which reserves were wiped out to balance the books, were actually wise in retrospect.
Milo, you say you see little “editorializing” going on in this piece and that the piece “makes it clear what the city is trying to accomplish”. Sorry, but I’m actually seeing quite a bit of editorializing going on albeit much of it in the form of questions that weren’t asked.
You may be happy with the questions asked in Adam’s post … good for you. I don’t think the discussion is anywhere near as in-depth as it needs to be. And as for the “kind of info you get in this post”, I see it as little more than what would be pumped out by the Councillor’s PR team.
Sam: you obviously have no idea how journalism and publications work.
milo,
you obviously have no IDEA (not ideo .. sorry for previous spelling error) of how spin doctors work… and the extent to which so-called established journalistic conventions play into what they do. As I said, if you are happy with the “info” in Adam’s post, good for you. I find the interview a bit shallow. Take care.
Sam, you’ve got to get over what’s happening to our street. Taking out your anger about Lansdowne on Spacing just because they didn’t crucify a Miller ally isn’t right.
It is difficult for the public to even begin to judge whether this is a good or bad budget considering there are no details.Yes a figure pops up like $700,000 for an item yet there is no breakdown at all.When I ask at city hall what are the details I get the same answer “for staff eyes only”.It would have been informative to the public at general if Adam allowed Caroll to give some details and justification as to the incredible figures instead of saying they will make money on providing a fish petting pond!Many details like that are absent.
As for me well I ran in two elections,one municipally in ward 19 against the incumbent Joe Pantalone and my platform was clear in trying to stop this type of property tax increase, I had stated it would be at least 5% but in fact it is higher with the surcharges added in.Joe said that I was lying at that the city would only raise taxes at the cost of living, at that time it was 1.2%.Miller backed up Joe with the same pledge.
I also ran provincially to try and bring in a “zero tuition” plan for university students.The incumbent was Rosario Marchese the education critic for the NDP.I was banned fromm most of the debates and media coverage was pretty much refused to me except for a few small outlets.The annex gleaner made sure that my interview wouldn’t be published until after the election.Well Rosario spoke about “freezing tuition”,he does that every election.He now states that the students can do fight tuition increases on their own he isn’t interested.I received 360 votes as an independant.I am still interested in fighting for my fellow citizens in ward 19 trinity-spadina.
http://www.georgesawision.com if anybody is interested.I am also on youtube with Olivia and Joe talking about Olivia chows interference in the municipal election where she admits to helping Joe as a member of parliament very unethical.
Are George and Sam brothers? These guys are knobs. If I wanted what Sam’s asking for I’d read the Sun. And if I wanted what George is asking for I’d fall asleep. There comes a time, George, when you have to realize that you aren’t a city councillor and that the councillors and bureaucrats have a job to do. That job is putting together a budget for us; we elect the politicians to do that.
Here’s a tip Sawision: Having a poorly written and ugly election web site when no election has been called is bad taste. You’re like Forest Gump but no one even wants you to run.
I hope we can keep this more civil and discuss the merits of the budget. It would be good if commenters stopped pointing fingers and focused on City Hall.
Sam >>> we welcome critical reviews — my above statement is not directed at you, though I strongly disagree with your assertion of this being a “puff” piece. But you’re free to express it.
thank you Marsha,
However I am not a slick politician like Joe Pantalone or David Miller.I ran at the request of fellow citizens to fix the problems at city hall.And yes it is true once someone is elected they have a jobe to accomplish.Unfortunately when a politician lies to the people and then goes on their merry way and goes against the wishes of the people that they are supposed to represent, then there is a problem.You can criticize me if you wish and I am sorry that I don’t have a slick web site for you.I dont spend a fortune to disseminate misinformation like the above politicians do and I dont belong to the NDP or any other political party that supplies the experts to fool the citizens.So no pwerpoint presentations for you.But I was spot on my ascertion that Joe and David were going to hit us with this type of budget and Miller promised that he never would.So do you prefer that kind of politician???
Lansdowne looks beautiful. But back to main story.
Sure the story could be more in depth and more adversarial but I don’t think that was its intent. It provides more info than any other paper did and Spacing and its posters have certainly followed this issue with vigor so I see it being a small part of a larger ongoing dialogue that this space provides. I got something out of the interview and thought it was worth reading.
I think George is “Mad as hell…and not going to take it anymore”.
LOLOL thank you scott,
I must agree with you in this case Spacing at least had an interview and we are “allowed” to comment on the budget and the idea of a higher than promised increase.There is such a low turnout at election time now because a majority of the citizens have lost total interest in city hall and politicians in general.I don’t understand why our local politicians are scared to let citizens give their view on this budget.In ward 19 there are no plans to meet the people who pay the bills.And dragging thenm to city hall just gets them pissed off when the councillors diss them.So, sorry I’m not mad as hell the citizens are and just like the time everyone was quiet before kicking out the mulroney team I think Miller and company will get it in three years.And it will have nothing to do with me I’m just the messenger.
I’ve been following the discussion and wanted to offer a few things to help people share their views on the budget.
Getting information
The budget website has already been linked above, but people might find this link to the finance department’s analyst notes useful. These are identical to what Councillors and the Mayor receive in the “budget binders.” They are broken down by department and provide a lot of detail.
http://www.toronto.ca/budget2008/analystnotes_operating.htm
During the process, councillors can ask for more information, which is provided in a briefing note format. The notes are all public, and available here:
http://www.toronto.ca/budget2008/briefingnotes_operating.htm
That page will be updated throughout the budget process.
Being heard
The Budget Committee is responsible for conducting the consultation on behalf of Council. The dates are:
Feb 4 – Councillors
Feb 5 – Members of the public (Council Chambers)
But that’s not the only way to be heard. If people can’t come to committee, they can write to the clerk and their letters are sent to Budget Committee. The Budget Committee’s clerk is named Merle (she’s very nice and helpful), and she’ll ensure your letter is forwarded to the committee: mmacdona@toronto.ca
Finally, we’re following Spacing’s discussion right now. It’s a small addition, but it’s important that you know we’re paying attention to Spacing’s debate, and the discussion. We even listen to George.
Didn’t expect that the comments here would deteriorate into name calling and attribution of ulterior motives. This will be my last post on this story.
To Jorge, believe it or not, my comments have nothing to do with what happened to Lansdowne. Nor do I think that Spacing should ‘crucify’ a Miller ally. Councillor Carroll is doing her job in answering the questions put to her. The point I was trying to make is that I felt the writer of this piece needed to ask some tougher, more in-depth questions. I find it a bit puzzling why someone would think asking a public official such questions amounts to crucifying them.
To Marsha Malhousen, if calling people “knobs” is your idea of commenting about their opinions, hey, go for it. Whatever puts a smile on your face. But I will mention that I don’t read the Sun because I don’t expect to come across much in there that I would consider worth reading. (Also, i’ve been told it tends to leave your hands very ink-stained.)
Obviously I think that Spacing is a better source of info than the Sun, otherwise I wouldn’t bother to check it out occassionally. But it’s also clear that the site’s editorial overwhelming seems to align itself with the Miller agenda. Aside from the odd reader comment, there seems to be very little here that would suggest that the criticisms against certain City Hall directions aren’t just from the typical right-wing whackos, but also from some individuals on the left.
PS to Scott. Glad you think Lansdowne looks beautiful. Since you probably don’t live here you are likely unaware that there’ve been a number of instances of cars jumping the curb…and police have also been setting up speed traps because the wider travelling lanes mean that during non-peak hours cars are going faster than previously. So much for the City’s ‘pedestrian’ friendly agenda.