Last week, Spacing contributing editor Christopher DeWolf, who is now stationed in Hong Kong, asked readers of Spacing Montreal their thoughts on how Montrealers behave on public transit. DeWolf’s experience in Hong Kong hasn’t been much different: people still block doors, stand still on both sides of the escalator, wear backpacks on crowded subways….
We’ve previously posted about how TTC employees have behaved poorly, but we want to know your thoughts on the manners of Toronto transit riders. The Spacing Montreal readers think we’re rather polite, but are we actually a good bunch with a few bad apples? Do we line up orderly or are we line jumpers? Do folks get up for elderly riders and pregnant women?
photo by Alex Indigo
65 comments
Growing problem: People who play their music too loudly through headphones.
I was in Victoria recently and was amazed that young and old alike thanked the driver as they got off the bus. I told a 64 year old friend about that and she sighed and said “That is what Toronto was like inthe 50s.” It was also a bit of a culture shock to see young people get up without hestiation for older people. Rarely have I seen that in Toronto. What really bugs me is when I see parents sitting with their 12 year old (or so) kids and they don’t prod them to get to their feet to let an older person sit down. I don’t think it’s gotten worse but it sure hasn’t gotten any better, which is really too bad.
I think multiculturalism is a real issue in civic life. I do not mean to say that immigrants have better or worse manners; however, each brings his or her own set of manners. As an example, when I lived in Japan my manners may have been misinterpreted as rude or brusque, though my sympathy for the other person was equivalent. Not having a common language of manners is as much of an issue as not having a common language itself.
Manners have vastly deteriorated. I’ve been riding the TTC since I was in Grade 3: over 20 years. When I was young, I was taught to do as everyone else did at the time: clear the incoming doorways unless absolutely necessary to stand there, keep your bags on the ground, not the seats or your back, and to always offer seats to the elderly/pregnant. I rarely see any of these things occur anymore. To me, the greatest offender is people just plopping themselves in the doorway with their back to incoming human traffic. I have to admit (much to my chagrin) that they usually get a cursory brush-by bump from me on my way into/out of the train.
I think the ‘me’ culture has everything to do with the complete lack of consistency in following any of these elements of the unspoken TTC social contract. No one is prepared to deal with a slight bit of shared discomfort or lack of personal convenience in order to afford their neighbour the same slightly less than ideal condition. It’s my opinion that the ‘it’s all about me’ attitude which seems to pervade society right now completely precludes this. It’s a shame, because I used to love my daily subway rides and the people watching that went with it; now, I get so frustrated and annoyed, I tend to dread them. I wish people would give a little to get a little during their daily commute: I think we’d all be a lot happier.
Just my two cents.
Well, for starters, the “walk left/stand right” practice has been abandoned. For safety, escalators are encouraged to just stand. Whether this happens or not, it’s no longer considered bad form to stand on both sides of the escalator.
Generally, I find that people are decent on transit, beyond barely acknowledging others’ presence. They mostly stand clear when doors are opening to let people off (with the occasional exceptions that stick out in every one’s mind).
My big complaint: MOVE TO THE BACK OF THE VEHICLE. I always see buses and streetcars crowded at the front and empty at the back, and people never think the driver’s pleas to move back so more people can get on apply to them.
Re: Victoria…riders will thank the drivers even while exiting the rear doors.
@Marco: worse than people who play music too loudly through headphones are the people who play music *without* any headphones at all. Just thinking about all of the times I’ve seen people playing music through their mobile phone’s speakers… often with the phone held up to their ears the whole time, scanning the train practically challenging other riders to call them out for their behaviour.
Not to boo-hoo too much, but the tinny and high-pitched sound that those poor quality speakers put out, combined with all the background noise already present on a bus or subway, often forces me to turn off (or take out) my hearing aids when one of these selfish people is nearby.
Every time I see TTC bad behaviour, I tend to (rightly or wrongly) assume it’s a 905er.
I see tonnes of people thank drivers in toronto. More so in the night when things are hectic or crowded.
The worst perpetrators of rudeness are, oddly, older short women. Seriously. I find they feeel they have a right to be the first onto the streetcar or bus if there is any lineup. Doesn’t matter if they just arrived or if there is a big lineup in a shelter. This happens regularly on Spadina, but also on the College line in Little Italy and on Dundas. I’ve been the first to arrive at a stop and I’m the one at the front of a line to get on a streetcar and I’ll get pushed aside by a lady and her groceries as soon as the door opens. I feel bad saying anything but I really want to call them out on it (ie. “I’ve been waiting in the cold too but for 10 minutes before you arrived!”).
Otherwise, I find a few people are dorks while most everyone is rather respectful of my private space.
The failure to move back is, I think, an ironic effect of crowded vehicles without thoughtfully laid out seating. When riders fear a vehicle will be crush loaded, they are (quite reasonably) reluctant to move all the way to the back of a streetcar or bus for fear that the narrow aisle, once packed with other riders, will be jammed and so they won’t be able to get out the rear doors quickly enough.
I’ve been on the receiving end of more streetcar stink-eye than I care to recall in detail from other riders when I’m lingering near the rear doors two stops (or so) from home. I’m not going to let 8 people jam themselves between myself and the exit… then I’d just get stink eye x10 when I have to shove past all the backpack-wearing, giant ugly purse toting zombies in order to break free. You can’t win, really, unless vehicles have more than two sets of doors.
I assume the rude are 905ers, ‘(rightly or wrongly)’ when someone nearly takes me off my bike in a van or N.American SUV. If it’s a spendy SUV (or any BMW, etc), I assume it’s some tool from Forest Hill.
I find it amusing that this was posted the same day shots were fired on a TTC bus.
If you want to see how Torontonians behave on transit, try riding the TTC during rush hour. Commuting during rush hour, by the way, is a big no-no. Forget “rude 905s”. The problem is douchebags who live in the inner suburbs – the kind of assholes who will elbow you out of a space on a streetcar despite the fact you were standing there alone when the previous streetcar left.
jamesmallon> your first comment reminds me of an old Seinfeld joke…”It’s the immigrants. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…”
MOVE TO THE BACK PEOPLE! You will still be able to get off when it is your stop. It is only a few feet from the VERY BACK of the street car to the doors. People will move (even if just a little while still pretending to not notice you) and let you get off.
It is an irrational fear that you will not be able to ‘make it’ to the doors to exit.
I move to the back every time and, yes, I get the knife-eye for it sometimes. 95 % percent of the time there is room back there and also a seat. If a seat isn’t available right away, then one usually becomes available quickly.
The drivers need to be more adamant about people exiting at the rear and stepping up quickly to the cars… people approach them like they are space ships from another planet they’ve never seen before. MOVE IT PEOPLE!
My biggest most massive pet peeve is people who do not cover their mouths when they cough. It still happens all the time!!
Sounds like some of us are riding the same hate rocket.
The ipod zombies are a bore. It’s getting less pleasant to read on public transit because of their tinny emanations.
The TTC is full of melancholy horror. I often get onto a subway car and feel like I’ve stepped into an Otto Dix painting.
Every time I get off the Midland 57 at Montgomery I thank the driver, simple courtesy. She did her job well and I was pleased.
Toronto versus Montreal, not that again, transport of the masses is a global challenge.
The challenge is of losing our public space to those who want to regulate it. We only feel ownership when we observe and participate.
When we take it back, when we say this belongs to me. We might triumph.
Compared to what i went thru in asia last year, our transit’s a breeeeeeeeeeze.
Can you imagine transit “pusher” employees here??(door-men who push you into a subway car to fit in)
People would be screaming and fuming for their personal space.
*Well said Jamesmallon. Good observation.
Multiculturalism may have a part to play in people’s interpretation of manners.
Such a difficult metric to capture — we all probably feel that the subways were immaculate 20 years ago and that everyone was polite back then. And yet in the 1980s I’m sure people felt all hell had broken loose compared to the take-your-hat-off 1960s. Still, there is likely some truth to the pattern.
You can make all the questionable stereotypes you want about ethnicity and culture but I suspect income is the only factor that really matters for a given place over time. As Toronto’s overall income levels have dropped and the affluent have left the TTC (due to moving out of the city or to downtown condos within walking distance), manners and conditions have deteriorated.
Relative to other places, Toronto seems to be more polite than New York. That could be a function of income (far greater disparities in NY) or also relative factors such as poor design (NYC cars have narrower doors and a million blocker-attracting poles), overcrowding (you have no idea!) and decrepit environs (graffiti, grime and trash is much worse in NY). My wife had great trouble getting a seat here when visibly pregnant — usually only women would get up.
I do have fond memories of the London tube in the 90s, which was an exceptionally civil place when not at rush-hour crowding levels. The tiny spaces make everyone smile as to break the tension, and I recall one particular conversation:
German female tourist to two gently inebriated Scots seated across from her, wearing kilts and clutching beers – “is it true what they say about kilts?”
Scot #1 – “why quite so, ma’am” (lifts up Scot #2’s kilt) Everyone chuckles.
One last comment.
People are mentioning the “Move to the back of the bus/car” argument alot.
Wouldn’t removing some of the seats in the back of these vehicles create more space for people to maneuver in? I hate these bus/car designs with super-narrow hallways in the back. No one wants to go to the back because it’s almost impossible to get in them sometimes.
Get rid of seats in the back and create more space. Besides, transit’s for short distance commuting, not cross-canada travel.
I have also spent time traveling Japan on trains and transit. It really did show me how rude Canadians can be on transit.
I have used transit in Paris, London, NYC and Montreal. There were rude people in all of those cities, but I never saw any rude people in Japan (except westerners). I think it really illustrates the difference between a community-centred culture and an individual-centred culture, and as jamesmallon said – the difference between our language of manners.
People who are “in a bubble†or zoned-out while on public transit are actually being inconsiderate. When you live in a city, you have to be conscious of the space you’re taking up and be considerate of others. I’m constantly irritated at the jacka$$es that ride the streetcars with their backpacks and who block people from getting to the back of the car. Take a look around people, you’re not the only one on the bus! As others have said, you’ll be let off at your stop, there’s really no chance of “not making it” unless, maybe you’re “zoned out”
The Japanese transit systems have lots of instructions for how to behave on transit and subway manners including listening to your music with earphones and quietly, not talking on your cell phones, not littering, not carrying giant bags, making room for the disabled or elderly and generally not doing anything that may inconvenience other passengers.
While there are certainly problems with uber-conformist cultures, we can learn something about living in a city and making it work for the greatest number of people from the Japanese.
Tammy: “It is an irrational fear that you will not be able to ‘make it’ to the doors to exit.”
I beg to differ. Many people can’t make it to the exit in time before the bus starts again(*you’re telling me you’ve not witnessed this?) Especially when theres a jammed bus and it’s loud inside.
Regarding mouth coughing, like Jamesmallon mentions, it may just come down to different manners people have. Not all cultures sees things your way. All you can do i guess is protect your own self.
By the way, given that the public will always act like clueless morons, you have to fault the designers for many of the problems people mention above. Toronto’s subway doors are exceptionally wide, wider than any others I’ve seen. This does validate people standing in the doors to an extent, as they can feel they are still leaving room to pass, but given that the idiots were going to stand there anyways it was a smart move. Pole placement on TTC cars is also very well thought-out.
As noted above, buses/streetcars are the weak point but is a design flaw at fault. Check out these Oakland buses — this is what you need to get people to move to the back. Put a door there and the herd will flow to it.
http://tinyurl.com/aolzjx
TTC should make sure their next bus order has three doors to solve this issue (four on articulated).
uskyscrapper: Are you insinuating only wealthy people have manners? Pretty bold statement..
I’m so incensed I’m not sure I can type correctly! Sir uSkyscraper, according to your logic because I have a monthly income of 892.50 I’m rude?
I totally refuse to move back if I am getting off soon. The streetcars get crowded to the point of the stairs being filled by people who refuse to get off the car to let others off. I took the Bathurst car from the station to College one day – ended up at the ex before I could get off. It also happens a lot of Spadina.
Ernest Hemingway on Toronto transit riders, 1923:
They let women stand up in the street cars.
Even if they are good-looking.
They are all in a hurry to get home to supper
And their radio sets.
I think most of the issue has been well covered.
I think the design question is an interesting one.
In the photo of the Oakland bus…..
I observe what appears to be a 100% low-floor bus, which would eliminate the stairs on the TTC buses that many people don’t want to take to get to the far rear of the vehicle.
They also seem to have put all the mechanical (or most) on top of the bus; and shrunk the tires.
This could have the effect of adding 2-3 extra seats (the off-set for which is the loss 2 seats with a 3rd door.)
If this design works, and is affordable; I think it would markedly address the ‘everybody needs to move back issue)
Generally I’ve had very positive experiences although I’d rate the TTC below the GO train in terms of friendliness. Torontonians are a very nice bunch as a whole.
There are exceptions. I’ve had a few very strange rides with the very obviously mentally ill: no harm done but I’m glad my kids weren’t with me.
The most annoying was the loud mouth middle aged man last week that complained about people “having no courtesy any more”. He and his father, surrounded by their purchases, were each occupying two seats on a crowded train while others stood. There are all kinds in the big city, but luckily this is the exception.
Holy, an epidemic of James’es has broken out!
3 posts in a row, from what I assume are 3 different James (es); I’m only one of them…..
Well, 2 now that there are 4 posts in a row!
Whoa, whoa, whoa — I apologize. My phrasing was sloppy, but I was only trying to make a broad argument linked to accepted economic statistics rather than revert to the likes of comment #3. It’s not that all wealthy people have manners and those in poverty do not – it’s that the wealthy can afford the luxury of civility. There is no justification to be rude and block doors if you are a well-to-do kid from a stable home in Forest Hill, but if you are stressed out from a minimum wage job, rushing to another job or night school, and are struggling to make ends meet I can understand more of a zoned-out, “me-first” approach. I live in a very low income neighbourhood myself and see the stress and sleep-deprivation people have to live with.
Toronto’s middle class has been shrinking — I was just trying to suggest that this may have had an impact on the trends noted in transit behavior. (Teachers and accountants, after all, tend not to shoot people on the Ossington bus).
To echo what a few others have said: TTC riders are tragically poor at moving in / moving back and not crowding the doors – on streetcars, buses and subways. Dramatically worse than New York transit riders, for example, where I used to live: my theory is that New Yorkers are used to riding on more densely packed transit and TTC riders are still getting used to being a big city.
The other area where Toronto riders fare badly in comparison to other jurisdictions is in giving up seats to those who are in need – pregnant women, elderly people, people with children, people on crutches, etc. It is amazing being on transit in central European – Berlin, Prague, Vienna – where there is a strong social stigma if you DON’T give up your seat to those more in need. Being on those systems made me a much more aware rider here in Toronto.
I nearly always say “Thank You” when I get off the bus (except when the driver is a twit), but I live in the 905, and pretty much everyone else in my town does it too. (Yes, us “rude” 905ers.)
Worse than the NOT MOVING TO THE BACK are the people who EXIT THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR. I always exit through the rear doors, even in the old days with a baby stroller.
People continue to exit through the front door and delay people trying to enter.
Well, you address one of my favourite peeves. I’d have to say that compared to London, Santa Fe, Boston, Victoria B.C and Chicago, where I travelled last year, and used the transit, Toronto gets a miserable mark for good bus and subway manners. This morning I used the Avenue Road bus, going north. While at least three middle aged and older adults with lunch bags and other paraphenalia stood, lurching back and forth hanging onto poles, the seats were ALL occupied by high school students, completely oblivious. I don’t think I have ever been offered a seat on the bus here, aside from when I was visibly pregnant. In every one of the cities I mentioned above, people offered seats and sometimes a greeting. Bus drivers in Santa Fe were exceptionally helpful and it appearsed that it is definitely working class and native people that use the system there. They even played music on the buses – twice I heard Feist while I was on the bus, which I thought was a nice touch. My point is, transit riders have not been taught or reminded of good manners. Teachers and drivers take heed. Drivers should insist that people leave by the back doors to speed up loading new passengers. Back in the “olden” days there were TTC staff at some stops to show people how to line up. I always say thank you to the driver. Generally they seem to be pleased. Better than a bunch of obnoxious back pack weilding high schoolers, I guess. Or people with guns.
It appears I have been censored for some reason. Beautiful.
What?
“”It’s not that all wealthy people have manners and those in poverty do not – it’s that the wealthy can afford the luxury of civility.””
You’re kidding right? You mean I can but civility? I didn’t buy it I was taught it!
If there were more goodlooking people on the TTC, we’d all behave better. Wash up, people.
I’m totally for the general level of politeness being bumped up a little in this city. Frankly people are too concerned with their own little bubble to offer their seats, or walk QUICKLY in a straight line, or stand on the right side of the escalator…cause god forbid a person doesn’t stand next to their friend to talk about Paris Hilton’s B.F.F.
However, I vividly recall several instances from my high school student days where I was treated like crap by many older citizens. Being pushed out of the way (literally…pushed) into the side of a subway so an old lady can get in the door first, and then to top it off being given the old stank eye from her for it.
Being yelled at, oddly enough by another older lady, for not moving out of the way of the doors of the subway, BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN OPEN (to which i responded, I cannot move any faster than the doors do maam, before stepping out of the way when they were finally open).
And finally, being berated by a lady whose bags were resting on a seat, that I should vacate my seat on the bus for an elderly couple that had already refused my offer of a seat (even though I was carrying 3 bags of my own), for being a rude young man (not her words, but I don’t want to write them here).
I’m not saying all students are perfect on transit, far from it (I’ve got stories on that too)…however I do not believe that all students should be labelled as rude and inconsiderate on transit as have been in the past. Torontonians as a whole needs to get past our undeserved sense of entitlement and get a lesson in common courtesy and common sense.
Lots of good discourse going here.
I would say for the most part people are pretty good on the TTC. I find that most people understand that taking the transit is generally unpleasant and cramped, and we really do, do our best to be respectful of each others space. Aside from the ignorant mofo’s once in a while, what can you do?
Lead by example thats what.
You can’t expect anyone to behave how you think they should behave. It just makes you angry, and we’ve all had our fair share of miserable, frustrating rides.
All we can do is lead by example. A little humility these days might just be the trick.
I have had few problems with other riders on the TTC. For a while I was frustrated by the constant smell of McDonalds on the bus due to the McDonalds in Dundas W station, but I was hating on McDs and the TTC for allowing it in their stations moreso than the riders… I often am in a rush and have to eat on transit.
As mentioned above, however, I have had far more trouble with TTC employees. Many are friendly and gracious, but I have also had many be rude and unhelpful.
It’s funny how in some places, children (not just teens) are supposed to stand to let adults (not just the elderly) sit, and in others, adults are supposed to stand to let other adults and their children sit.
Anyone who says it’s impossible to be stuck in the back of a streetcar, unable to reach the doors in time without being “zoned out” must have a very different commuting experience than I do. It’s just not worth shoving past 7 zombies to reach the back (where there are few/poor handholds, to boot) just to fight your way past them again in 5 or 6 minutes.
Generally I find that unless it’s rush-hour, TTC riders tend to be fairly civil. When there is lots of space on the bus, it’s easy to keep out of each other’s way, and I do notice a greater frequency of people helping others on with strollers, etc.
I actually think we could stand to be “less polite” in the sense of speaking up when someone is acting inappropriately. There have been times when I have inadvertently left my bag on the seat beside me (because I am “zoned out” – from stress or lack of sleep) and appreciate it when someone asks me to move it, rather than standing beside me and quietly fuming. Similarly, I’ve asked people to move their bags and also told people to turn off their tinny cellphone speakers. I think we should get over this self-righteous feeling of “I shouldn’t have to ask…” especially if it takes 5 seconds and makes the rest of the ride much more pleasant. Dirty looks just don’t work.
By far the worst passenger faux-pas I’ve encountered has been a man smoking on a subway car – at first sort of trying to hide it, and then openly blowing smoke while other indignant riders stared at him. Of course, no one said anything although I think that situation would have warranted pressing the passenger assistance alarm.
I find it odd that in this whole thread, nobody has mentioned the larger context in which we ride the TTC. Service isn’t as good (measured as space available per would-be passenger and reliability of vehicle frequency). System cleanliness leaves something to be desired, and escalators/elevators may be out of service for extended periods.
All of this gives riders (and employees too) a feeling that nobody cares about the transit environment and experience, and that it’s everyone for themselves. I have noticed that GO transit bus riders tend to be quite polite, but they have a cushy service relative to the typical TTC rider. The relaxed environment translates to less stress and better behaviour.
Otto Dix! TTC! Ha!
I find it interesting that some commenters here like to generalize about what “types” of people are the most rude on the TTC — “short older women” or “high school students,” etc.
In my experience, anyone can be rude, and I have no idea why.
My biggest peeves are: 1) Not moving back, as has already been noted; 2) bags on the seats when train is full; 3) standing in front of exit doors — why for the love of god do people do this? I somehow feel of late that this is the most inconsiderate, given the person is able-bodied, of course.
I also don’t get assuming the rude people are 905er’s. Ridiculous geographyism.
Good point, Steve, about the quality of the service impacting peoples’ behaviour and stress levels on transit. I have noticed much better-behaved passengers in cities that have a better transit service (meaning more frequent, less crowded, more comofortable, etc.), like Paris or Rome.
I have also noticed this on the TTC when the people on the bus/streetcar/subway aren’t packed like sardines, either on less-used routes or off-peak hours. I think when everything works as it’s supposed to – no delays or line-ups, relative cleanliness, no crowding – it’s a lot easier to behave well. It’s incredibly stressful when one relies on transit and transit doesn’t pull through.
The TTC tells us to let other passengers exit before getting on the subway car. But if you do that, the driver closes the door before you can get on.
Everyone’s rushing to get on or off the subway because the operators don’t leave the doors open long enough.
I’m enjoying my subway commute. The time spent people watching is fascinating, and listening to my ipod makes it the ultimate urban experience of movement and sound. It is a rare chance to zone out in a very busy schedule.
My issues? The subway stations are filthy. Are they ever washed? Some drivers are amazing and others can seem quite bitter. There is an obvious discord between drivers and management that the riders are bearing the brunt of. Most people are polite, but the thing that really gets me are the passive-aggressive types who make a fuss about how they think everyone should be behaving. It feels like some people love a power trip. Sometimes people on their phones can get annoying, but on the other hand I’ve heard some really hilarious conversations. It is a real slice of humanity. And I always say “thanks”!
I take the super-crushed Queen car in the morning fairly often. Generally people are pretty good about shifting and adapting to let more people on and not get in each other’s way. But it only takes one person to mess things up.
The key is for people to be observant – keep part of the brain in the background noticing other people and where and when they want to move. When it works, it’s amazing – somehow everyone can go where they need to. Doesn’t always work, though.
One thing I’ve noticed recently that I haven’t in past years – some people wait in front of the doors on the streetcar even if it isn’t their stop, and there’s space somewhere else. And then everyone else has to squeeze around them. I find that odd.
One thing no one has mentioned – if you’re in a crowded streetcar, and a seat opens up in front of you, *someone take the seat*. For sure, offer it to other people, but if no one is interested, for goodness’ sake sit down so that everyone else who is standing has more room. There’s nothing sillier than people packed together standing up when there is an empty seat.
Also, of course, if you’re in the aisle seat and the window seat clears, either move to the window seat, or shift aside so that someone can get in. I don’t like being in the window seat, so I confess I tend to sit in the aisle seat, but if there are people standing, I shift to the window so people feel comfortable sitting down.
I see a lot of people thanking drivers in Toronto after getting off, though generally in the evening, not at rush hour. When I was younger I didn’t understand this, thinking that the driver is just doing a job for money, and “thank you” seemed odd. I would say “have a good night” sometimes, and other positive remarks to acknowledge the driver’s presence. These days I realize that a good driver drives comfortably, accelerating and braking not too harshly, aggressively running yellows to make bus transit faster and more bearable. If everyone said thank you to good drivers, it might encourage such driving and send a message to the worse drivers.
On food: It seems absurd to eat on the TTC. How many people sneeze and then touch the poles you touch! What a great way to catch some disease. Sorry, United Way Pizza Wednesdays.
Finally, I’d like to add that we could use some plain clothes officers writing tickets patrolling the system. People who disregard the TTC bylaw would get fines. $50 for leaving that coffee cup or Metro newspaper on the train…I’m sure you’d see a cleaner system.
To make a mention of the GO –
It is heaven compared to the TTC. Especially at rush-hour (not so much in the late evening on the Lakeshore West line, where the GO turns into a party train, replete with dancing girls and alcohol).
The train is so silent.
Everyone lines up to exit the train.
Everyone lines up to get on the train.
No one crowds the doors.
I think the manners thing on the TTC generally depends on what area you go through.
Once when I was ill from doing Chemotherapy treatments I really needed to get a seat on the train. I waited and waited and didn’t get on a train until I saw a spot. When I finally saw a car with some seats I got on, only to get stepped on by a guy who got into the seat I was aiming for before I could sit.
I looked around and saw that all the others were taken. I am a young woman and I didn’t look pregnant so I didn’t expect anyone to offer me a seat. The guy who swooped in front of me knew I was trying to sit down so I tried to politely ask him to give me the seat. I said, “I’m really feeling dizzy, could I please have a seat” and his answer was “We all feel bad lady”. Then I said, “I’m doing chemotherapy, I really need to sit down”. I noticed everyone look at me and then look away. I couldn’t help the tears streaming down my face – plus I felt like I might fall over from dizziness. As someone who loves public transit, often offers up my seat, and even used to throw subway parties, this was a really low moment for me. As I wiped my tears I felt like a freak because everyone just looked away.
Now that I’m healthy I try to remember that I can never tell what someone is going through because on the surface people can look young and healthy but they might really need a seat. Even the guy who wouldn’t give me his seat may have had a story I didn’t know about. Sure it’s possible he was just a rude guy, but I feel it’s important to give people the benefit of the doubt.
When I see people acting rudely I say to myself, “you never know the whole story”.
To conclude, I think that the whole idea of manners is about respect for oneself and others, I really hope this concept doesn’t disappear. The “me, me, me” culture really needs a shift. It’s like we are unlearning empathy and that really scares me. For now I just try to keep my own empathy intact and as I said above, give folks the benefit of the doubt.
I really like urbanist’s positivity! Those are the bright sides I always try to look for when I’m on transit as well.
Carly: That’s a really sad story. I can’t believe nobody jumped to give up their seat. I give my seat to elderly citizens, pregnant women (tricky, sometimes!), parents with small children, or anyone who looks like they need it whenever I can, and I’ve been offered seats by people just randomly.
I have to repeat the complaint that nobody moves back. Move to the back. It’s *not* difficult to get to the doors if you’re paying attention and not afraid of saying “excuse me” (it’s really that simple!). If the car is really crowded, I tend to get up about a stop or half a stop before I need to leave and start making my way to the exit. Somebody’s going to take my seat/space, so it’s not like it’s getting *more* crowded just because I’m moving around.
I can’t believe the number of people who are so concerned about walking a block or two if they miss their stop. You just made somebody late for work or a doctor’s appointment because you didn’t want to give up your spot near the door. How absurd is that?
If you really went all the way to the EX when you were aiming for College on Bathurst, you really need to be more assertive.
Don’t stand near the door. People generally take this to be a signal that you’re going to leave at the next stop, and start lining up behind you. Good luck revealing that you’re staying on and forcing the giant line to shuffle aside so you can get out of its way.
Please also learn that standing on the back step means the door can’t close and the streetcar can’t MOVE. It’s amazing how many people don’t know this, and I’ve seen about half a dozen incidents where people actively argue about whether they can fit onto the car (and usually end up having to jump off anyway).
I once spent my entire commute home listening to two girls who were having a phone conversation … as in they were talking to somebody on the same phone, on *speaker phone.* The voice had to be turned up so loud it made the speakers crackle and was practically incomprehensible anyway.
And let people off first before trying to enter. I cannot believe I have to say this, but apparently a lot of people can’t understand that a streetcar needs to empty before it can be filled again. Basic law of space, I think.
Oh, and of course the longer you delay the streetcar for no good reason, the longer you delay all traffic going the same way. I hate this because it only degrades the reputation public transit has with many drivers. See the case of the back step … How silly does it feel for a driver to stay stopped behind an open streetcar door only to have it close later with nobody getting on or off?
I’ll join the chorus of complaining about people who don’t move to the back. Yes, sometimes not being able to get off at your stop is a valid reason, but most of the time it isn’t – not when there are multiple exits (like on a streetcar!), and not when 98% of the people on the bus are getting off at the subway station.
People who wear giant backpacks are also annoying, as are people who take up a seat for their bags when it’s busy.
I am guilty of leaning against the panels next to the door. When it’s crowded, it’s the most luxurious place to be. I don’t like giving free lap dances to those who are seated.
Hey Gloria
I ended up at the Ex instead of College since it was during the ex (unknown to me at the moment) and I got stuck seated at the back with oh, about a thousand people in front of me. I’m assertive, but some battles cannot be won.
Although Torontonians pride themselves on being more polite than New Yorkers (almost everyone does), when I was pregnant I was really struck by how few Torontonians offered me a seat compared to New Yorkers.
Interestingly, almost without exception, the people who did offer me a seat in Toronto were male immigrants. Anglo women carefully avoided eye-contact. It was weird.
I do get off at the front of the bus in the evenings, when no one is getting on at the front, and I always thank the driver.
I can not stand people blocking the doors. I feel like people deliberately misunderstand the wider subway or bus doors for wheelchairs; they are sure people can get by them without problems – but they are wrong!
I try not to let my fellow passengers get to me. After all soon when the snow is gone I can ride my bike again.
Problems I encounter.
1. Mostly young people who think it’s OK to wrestle, kick or punch their “friends” on a platform or vehicle with other riders around them. One time it was two kids sitting next to me and their parents were with them. I asked them to stop and the parents were incensed that I had talked to their kids and basically told me their kids were entitled to do what they want where they want. There’s no hope when parents are not teaching their kids to respect others, especially those they don’t know.
2. Pairs of people who think a vehicle is their livingroom and sit apart from each other and then yell across the vehicle. This happens when the vehicle is not that crowded and the people have several seat choices where they could sit side by side and talk quietly to each other.
Unfortunately, they want to make the other riders their audience and won’t let us ignore them. This is not particular to one age group or gender.
3. And finally, the TTC is not a jungle gym or a pole-dancing bar. Some riders need to quit swinging from turnstiles and the poles on the subway trains.
I’m surprised more people haven’t mentioned the problem of people refusing to take an empty seat when the bus/subway/streetcar is really crowded. It’s a case of Torontonians being TOO polite (and maybe the only example of that when it comes to the TTC). People think they’re being polite by leaving the seat for someone else (guys especially are like this), but when it’s completely crowded you’re actually doing a disservice by continuing to stand.
Urbanist? You sound like one of these conceited people who believes themselves to be “evolved” because you don’t criticize others for what they should be doing.
People who criticize are always wrong because they are NEGATIVE, aren’t they? You and your iPod know that negativity is incorrect, don’t you, because taking a power trip by telling other people what they should be doing is harmful to those peopole’s psychic energy! Even if THEY are on a power trip of behaving like selfish pigs, because they can and they don’t expect anyone to challenge them!
You completely miss every point that has been made here. And looking at all the posts I think they’ve covered practically every valid issue, i.e., people assuming the right to stand in doorways; clustering around the back door; rudely sitting in aisle seats; taking up all the seats with their bags; sitting far away from each other and yelling across the aisle at one another, and people selfishly exiting by the front doors when it’s clearly stated that they should get out the back doors.
If these seem like trivial and ridiculous things for people to complain about, then maybe you fatuously believe that the “urban” mentality gives people carte blanche to be discourteous and self-absorbed.
I’m just glad that I don’t have to ride the TTC at rush hour and can avoid the crowding on top of the self-involved behavior.
Live in your complacent little dream that you have to accept everyone’s immature and unacceptable behavior. You’re welcome to your “urban experience”! Enjoy your bubble, sunshine.
I’ve been riding the bloor line for the past year, but I go West in the mornings, so I don’t ride in a crowd, so I don’t have many of the complaints regarding spacing as many of you do, simply because I don’t encounter it.
my NUMBER ONE problem is with the TTC riders who feel it is absolutely essential that the entire subway car hears the music they are listening to. These people do not wear headphones. They turn up whatever MP3 player they’ve got to the max, and it is very loud. (just occurred to be that I’ve never seen an iPod owner do this… )
This morning on the subway, the guy across the aisle from me had an MP3 player on loud in his shirt pocket and just thought it was the greatest thing. After like 6 stops of this, I looked up at him, we locked eyes, I frowned and held his completely nonchalant stare for a few seconds. I looked back down at my crossword, and I swear he turned up his music player louder. I would say something, but I’m afraid of getting shot. Not to say anything about this guy.. he looked like a normal dude, but you never know what can set someone off. If someone is so completely immune to common decency that they would blast their music in an enclosed public space, I don’t believe they would respond well to me telling them to please stop. It’s sad that I live in fear of these idiots.
What I don’t understand is why the TTC doesn’t put up signs that outline common no-nos on public transit… they had them up on the Paris subway, just pictures depicting a scene where someone was doing something they weren’t supposed to or that was impolite.. so simple, and I believe it would be effective for some TTC riders.
Another thing that bugs me is people smoking at TTC entrances. It’s TTC property, and smoking is not allowed.. This is especially bad when it’s raining, because they all gather under the roof right at the doors.