I arrived in New York City yesterday evening and am saying in Bedford-Stuyvesant in central Brooklyn. At around 10pm I took the A Train into Manhattan because as much as Brooklyn — or any outer borough in any city — is nice, it’s not the middle and I always feel an urgent need to go to the middle as quickly as possible to feel like I’ve arrived in a place. One quick observation is that the MTA’s perimeter seating, coupled with smooth and level plastic benches (with no bum-dimples), makes sitting in one place on the train quite a bit of work. I hooked my arm around a pole at the end of the bench so I wouldn’t slide down when the train stopped. This is not a problem during rush hour as the general civic body(s) keeps you in place, but the fuzzy and grippy seats of the TTC are missed. Maybe they’re harder to clean, but they make the TTC feel much more like a comfortable living room.
Other NYC observations over the next five days — some great, some small, some inconsequential — can be followed along via my Twitter feed.
22 comments
One thing I noticed during my recent trip is just how LOUD the trains are there. Also the delay in opening the doors once the train has stopped is annoying, and weekend rerouting of trains can cause mayhem.
But considering how much area it covers, I’d still take their system over ours.
The “fuzzyness” also helps benches *look* cleaner. Especially if they’re patterend (which they are not in Toronto but I’ve seen in other cities).
Although some of us might be aware of the upholstery holding more puke and pee and whatever other goodies one might expect (or not expect) than a flat smooth surface, I bet the non-visibility of these substances helps most people feel more comfortable sitting down.
The fuzz notwithstanding, I definitely prefer the perimeter seating and am disappointed the TTC is preserving its current seating arrangement for the new subway trains. The perimeter seating makes people naturally adjust to the number of passengers on the train, can hold obese people (yes, some might count this as a con), and ultimately has greater capacity.
Also I have never heard of people who get nauseous from going sideways, just from going backward.
I prefer the TTC arrangement as well. It clearly lines out what area you are allotted, and what allowance you need to make for other passengers.
Kevin: now you have heard of a person who gets nauseated when sitting in the sideways seats. Sorry to break the streak.
I had this problem when I was in NY too. It felt awkward steeling myself so I wouldn’t squoosh onto my fellow passenger every time the train started; it was probably more effort to sit than to stand.
Kevin: My mom does.
Ha, love seeing you guys pick up on the things I see every day on my commute on the A train.
Agree with all of the above. Here’s another tidbit — originally, the door chimes (on the newer trains) were supposed to operate like Toronto — sound the chime as a warning, then close the door a few seconds later. However, everyone took that as a sign to run for the doors and hold them, so instead the chime only sounds AFTER the doors have begun to close. Instead of meaning “Stand back please, doors are about to close” it’s more like “DOOR IS CLOSING ON YOUR ARM, MOTHERF&&KER, SO MOVE IT!” On the older trains, the announcers simply say “This is 23rd St. Stand clear of the closing doors” long before they actually intend to close the doors. The warning is part of the background intro noise and has no relation to the doors actually closing.
One of the fun things about the NYC subway is that there are at least a dozen kinds of vehicles roaming the tracks. See Wikipedia for more on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_rolling_stock) but it’s kind of fun to see what works and what doesn’t.
The oldest and newest trains have the flat-bench perimeter seating as shown in this photo. Slippery, yes, and leaves you staring directly at the passengers opposite – very aggressive given the wide distance between the seats (unlike London, which is so close you have to be friendly). Accommodates a varying number of bodies depending on season (winter coats eat up space) and individual body size/level of aggressiveness. Look for wide-stance young males who like to plant their legs as far apart as possible to claim maximum bench space.
Generally speaking, the door areas are a disaster on NYC trains — they are not as wide as new TTC cars and more importantly, most New Yorkers are passive-aggressive jerks who do their damnest to stand near the door but not move out of it at stops. (They also like to charge the doors before people exit). Lots of entertainment there.
Pole location is also a problem on some cars. Watch the poles the next time you ride and note how people cluster at the poles, creating a roadblock to the spacious and soft middle. All worthy of a thesis in human behaviour.
The E has the most homeless people, because it never goes above ground. Cold days will find four homeless per car, one in each corner. (New York is the opposite of Toronto — homeless are not allowed to be on the street but are tolerated in the subway)
The oldest trains rattle like hell, are INCREDIBLY loud, and the drivers love to start and stop. It can get nauseating, but it’s part of the so-bad-it’s-good appeal of the MTA.
There is some credit due on the newest trains (N, M) that have full LCD screens and fantastic linemaps that really make navigation easier. A vast improvement over the we’re-still-catching-up-to-1999 planned TTC over-the-door LED maps.
Overall, the system does work but that’s due (like Toronto) to the strong-willed builders of a couple generations ago more than to any current management, which has focused more on safety and maintenance. The system is cleaner than it was in the 80s but except for some recently renovated stations most vehicles and stations make the TTC look very good indeed. Still, as long as the system remains fairly safe it is a great, perhaps the only, way to get around the bulk of the city.
I wonder what the TTC would look like if we had subsidized it as much as NYC’s transit authority.
I also wonder how many poor people would have more disposable income if the TTC’s monthly pass cost $81 instead of $109.
I lived in Queens two summers ago. Good times on the 7 🙂
First thing that struck me when I arrived back in Toronto was the subway doors–quite literally. In New York, jamming the doorway open to squeeze yourself into a during rush hour is a given–the doors kick back almost as easily as elevator doors. I tried to do the same the first day back in town and I almost lost my arm.
I don’t find any directions of subway seating to be particularly nausea-inducing. (The Orion 7 buses, on the other hand, are a different story.)
The limitation I find with perimeter seating is that riders don’t like to be the one squished into the middle of the group of 3 seats. I usually travel in the off-peak direction and when there aren’t the rush hour peak direction constraints, I find people will usually stand rather than take the middle seat.
That, and the mixed seating helps visually break down the long cars into smaller compartments. This may be less of an issue in New York where I believe the individual train cars are shorter.
I’ll take the hard, plastic, but clean MTA seats over the fuzzy, soft, but disgustingly dirty TTC seats any day. Lisa is right, the fuzz does hide some of the grime and other nastiness, but look closely and it’s there. On the MTA, I found all the seats to be clean, and it’s probably because they’re able to mop them down unlike ours.
New York train cars are the same length as TTC – 75 ft – on certain lines, and it can seem oddly anti-pedestrian to wander into one like in the photo, all hard surfaces and stripped bare of ornament. Prison buses have as many comforts.
Door jamming is considered quite normal behaviour, but only on the older trains. Newer ones have stronger doors that imply a risk of bruising so you don’t see as much of it. The trains are also a lot more crowded. No matter how crowded you think TTC cars are, try riding the E from Penn Station to Lex or the 6 from Grand Central to 96th at rush hour.
Funny thing about fares — only five years ago, NYC was a real bargain – $4 day pass, $63 monthly pass – but fares have been regularly rising since. They already get less subsidy than any other American system and will soon be at TTC levels of farebox dependency. The only subsidy lesson to learn here is that the MTA controls a lot more than rail transit and certain parts subsidize other parts. What if revenue from the 407 went to the subway? What if taking a bus in Brampton balanced subsidies against taking a GO train in Markham? If Metrolinx directly controlled everything in the GTA, including roads, it would be more like the MTA, and you might see some benefits to certain chronically underfunded components.
MTA pros:
-higher-tech ticket/pass vending machines.
-better overall geographic coverage.
-better buskers.
-useful PA announcements of stops.
TTC pros:
-cleaner, better-lit and designed stations (yes, the “bathroom” tile that so many hate is preferable to bare concrete and exposed, rusty cast-iron).
-smaller fauna (mice v MTA rats).
-better integration with buildings, malls and surface transit.
MTA pros (relative to TTC):
– better ticketing system
– consistent wayfinding system, given that the station layouts are so bad (I’m talking to you 14 St//Union Sq)
– perimeter seating
– staggered doors on either side
– clear, informative announcements using varying voices that are as concise as they need to be.
MTA cons:
– bad station layouts (see above). This is due to the age of the system and the fact that after amalgamation, you had to reconcile the connections between what were once competing private companies.
– very unreliable lines in Brooklyn, notably the F train, the dreaded G, and the increasingly truncated M.
– tendency of people to rush the doors leading to delays
– slowness of trains on tracks that have had their maintenance deferred for too long (mostly BMT lines).
“I also wonder how many poor people would have more disposable income if the TTC’s monthly pass cost (US)$81 instead of (C)$109.”
At current exchange rates, not much.
Two issues about perimeter seating:
1. Some people with back problems do not like to sit sideways as the effort needed to remain vertical causes backstrain. It’s not a question of nausea for them, but of avoiding putting their backs out.
2. When perimeter seating is combined with underseat “boxes” to fill in the space as an anti-terrorist measure (as originally proposed by the TTC), there is no place to tuck your feet. This means that you get stomped on by the standees and/or that there is actually less room for standees than would seem to be the case. Parcels, also, won’t fit partly under the seats if this area is filled in.
Note that in the photo at the top of this article, although the seats are boxed in there is at least a slope to the box so that there is some tucking room. The TTC on the other hand just puts a square box as you can see in some places on the T-1 cars.
Recently I’ve ridden on new Mississauga Transit buses out of the Islington Subway station and they had really plush seats…you can sink your fingers, or at least your fingernails, into them. Very comfy.
As for feeling nauseous, I never do either sitting facing front or back or sitting sideways, although I avoid sideways wherever possible because the swaying makes it more difficult to read my book.
I prefer the cloth angled seats that the TTC has, and will have on their new trains. When the TTC surveyed customers for the new subway trains, the perimeter seating lost out. I rode the New York trains, and found those smooth plastic seats very uncomfortable and slippery.
http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/New_Subway_Train/Overview_and_key_features.jsp
I hate sitting on the permimeter, as the sideways motion annoys my neck after awhile. Sitting facing forward or backward also allows you to look out the window easier thus eliminating the horrible subway game of avoiding eye contact and providing the entertainment of watching the trip as you glide into stations.
I just miss the Montrealer and H-1, H-2 trains, they had cushy seats. The remaining trains with the cushy seats, the H-4’s, will be gone soon with the arrival of the Toronto Rockets in 2009-10. Enjoy what remains of comfortable riding on the Rocket before it’s gone for good.
I’ve made one observation about the similarities between the TTC and the MTA….They’re both crap! It
‘s just one’s bigger crap than the other. No North American city can provide any examples better than half-assed transit solutions. If we want to emulate transit best practices, it gets no better than Japan where the trains are frequent, on-time, well-interconnected, cheap AND the seats are cushy!
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2008/11//sncf_launches_frances_human_train.html
“The removal from traffic for substantial mechanical repairs of a Class Z21500 regional express EMU last year prompted national operator SNCF to take an almost unprecedented step by handing a collaboration of interior designers, seat suppliers and branding consultants the chance to renew completely the aesthetics of the train.”
Sounds like the sort of opportunity the Toronto Rocket cars could have been.