Until December 31, 1999, the TTC had a convenient mobile schedule system called Timeline. An early post on Spacing Toronto gives a history of the system and goes into the details of the system’s demise. Amongst the reasons for the shutdown was that Timeline was not Y2K compliant, there were telecom equipment issues, and the TTC had a strained budget after the Harris government withdrew provincial operating subsidies. For a cost of at least $2 Million, fixing Timeline was seen as a luxury.
One would note, however, that other systems throughout Ontario (such as Mississauga, York Region, Hamilton, Waterloo Region and Ottawa) still offer this service. Systems that had a dedicated telephone number for each stop (in Kitchener/Waterloo, the number was always 519-888-XXXX) eventually switched to having a single number to call.
After Timeline shut down, the TTC cleverly covered up the Timeline decals indicating the bus stop telephone number with either a decal promoting the request-stop program (which uniquely amongst transit operators in Ontario, is only available to female passengers) at bus stops, and “look left upon exiting” reminders at streetcar stops.
A few Timeline stickers remained, though. One lasted until 2008 at the 104 Faywood platform at Wilson Station. But to this day, the stops covered by the 39B Finch East rush hour branch on Bridletowne Circle and on L’Amoreaux Drive still sport their Timeline numbers.
Note the old “STOP” lettering on the sign above. Originally, TTC stops were painted on wooden, concrete or steel poles, with red bands between a white centre and would say “CAR STOP” or “BUS STOP”. Later signs, affixed to poles, used pictograms based on PCC streetcars or GM “New Look” buses. This is a relic of the transitional period when some text was still used.
19 comments
These are the kinds of things that I would like to see being discussed today instead of just a blind boycott. The TTC is being forced to raise rates because it is largely inefficient and does not focus on making the rider’s experience great. We have fallen behind other North American cities transit systems and are now going to be paying some of the highest costs for our less than stellar service. Why is fare collection not digital, with cash counting systems as auxiliary (note: counting). So long as the TTC’s fare collection does not ensure fair, equal, and full payment by all riders, fare increases will continue as more people will find workarounds as costs increase and the cycle continues. Also, if we do need to pay more, give us the 21st century version of Timeline…gps real-time mapping of bus routes accessible by web-enabled device (a la the CTA and its awesome mobile website in Chicago) so we can spend less time in the cold, cursing the TTC and more time enjoying what is still a very good public transit system.
you can also find some timeline numbers on some of the Bathurst St. bus stops.
Nick: you can’t have it both ways. The things you’re asking for will all increase operating costs. Which will necessitate higher fares and a greater subsidy.
The above stop is such a bad jumble of unattractive information.
Also interesting how TTC Timeline pre-dates the 416/905 split.
The TTC should never have taken out the telephone service and Councillor Miller at the time tried to save it.
The TTC will, in the coming months unveil a real time (the old system was just scheduled time) information system using text messages and stickers will go back up on stops. First phase is streetcars and 2nd by end of 2010 is for the bus system. Some shelters (the new ones were designed to accomodate them) will also have LED and all stations with buses will have LCD screens, most in place by end of 2010.
Too long in coming, but shortly on its way.
Nick wrote: “The TTC is being forced to raise rates because it is largely inefficient and does not focus on making the rider’s experience great.”
Nick: I don’t disagree with your assertion of the TTC lacks the skills to make the rider experience better, but that’s not why they are raising fares. They are raising them becuz the two upper levels of government do not fund the system properly. Each ride is subsidized by the governments, and the TTC usually has about 18% of covered by those subsidies. Most every large city in North American gets about 40% of a ride subsidized. The closest city to Toronto in farebox recovery still gets 15% subsidies than us.
Once that funding formula is fixed, then we can start to worry about the bloated TTC workforces. Between proper funding levels and a decent trimming of the fat form the TTC, the agency could afford things like a digital pass, etc.
I’m tired of hearing general complaints about too much fat and bloated work forces. That type of arguement is too facile.
I welcome specific suggestions, with a well-rounded discussion of what the overall impact would be of making the cuts.
For example, if we eliminate the ticket collectors, just about the only specific suggestion I’ve seen on the boards, will riders feel as safe waiting for a transfer late at night? Will visitors to Toronto be as willing to try the TTC if they have to figure out a fare machine, instead of being able to deal with a person? Will there be more graffiti on the stations, with it’s attendant clean-up costs? Will the current staff, who are generally former drivers who have suffered a disability go on LTD, and continue to be a cost while providing no service.
And how much savings would removing the collectors make, even if we simplistically say we would save all their salaries? The TTC has 10,000+ employees. There are only 69 subway/LRT stations, which require on average 3-4 staff a day (1 collector 20 hours a day & 2 during rush hour). Thats less than 300 collectors in a workforce of 10,000+. At the very best we might save 3%.
despite phasing out the timeline, you can always call 393-INFO (that’s in the 416, of course) around the clock and ask all kinds of things. for example, until recently, you could give two street addresses and the time of travel to a real person who would tell you the quickest, most efficient way to go by ttc. to get to this service, it was necessary to bypass all the numbered menus by pressing zero.
I’ve temporarily relocated to Montreal and the most useful tool on the STM system is their schedule integration with Google Maps. Now, using Google Maps from my Blackberry I can plot routes anywhere on their system. It’s a truly amazing tool and it’s absence in Toronto is pretty baffling.
Try myttc.ca. It’s pretty basic, but it will plot you the fastest transit route between any two points, and give you the times for each transfer point. The start and end points don’t have to be at transit stops either. It factors in walk time.
It’s not an official TTC site, but it uses the TTC’s schedules, including the actual schedules for those routes that are posted as “frequent service”.
Vancouver’s Translink doesn’t do much right, but I have to say I really miss their text message bus schedule service. You text your bus stop number to 33333 and the schedule for the next 5 or so buses is texted back within seconds. I relied heavily on that when I lived there, and I miss it dearly.
There are still quite a few poles that have old white and red paint on them… also a couple with yellow and red paint for Sunday stops (there is at least one on Kingston Road east of Main). I did not know about the sticker overlay and now I am going to be watching out for this…
If you download the TTC stop details from toronto.ca/open and open it in Excel, you can easily see that there are at least 10,100 individual bus and streetcar stops. Actually, the number that would be required for Timeline type service today is probably a fair amount higher than this because I believe this list counts all individual stops at a bus terminal as a single consolidated stop, whereas I think Timeline would have had separate numbers for each one.
Back in the day, I would call Timeline numbers at random and marvel at how close together the scheduled arrivals were (this was as someone from Mississauga where I was used to 20-minute peak / 30-minute off-peak service on my regular route).
Brent: Interestingly, as the TTC does have over 10,000 individual stops, many stops (as with Citylink in Mississauga or OC Transpo’s 530-1000 system) share the same stop numbers.
This was because the scheduled times are so close, it was not worth assigning separate schedules one or two stops apart on regular line-haul routes. In Mississauga, stops for multiple routes would still have one number, so when you called, you got the next scheduled buses for each route that served that stop. So I’d expect Timeline would have the capacity, even now with an improved schedule and more stops, to not run out of four digit numbers.
And even if it did, it could still have a single number to call, plus a 4 or 5 digit number to add to a telephone menu prompt that you get now with most telephone-based systems (CityLink [Mississauga], BusCheck [HSR], Teleride [GRT], or whatever).
Funny, It was just last week that I noticed an old Timeline sign still on the wall at Main St Station (for the 23 Dawes)
And how much savings would removing the collectors make, even if we simplistically say we would save all their salaries? The TTC has 10,000+ employees. There are only 69 subway/LRT stations, which require on average 3-4 staff a day (1 collector 20 hours a day & 2 during rush hour). Thats less than 300 collectors in a workforce of 10,000+. At the very best we might save 3%.
Laurie,
While I agree that eliminating the ticket collectors isn’t necessarily a good idea, it would be wise to look at making the system work better without them.
Fare machines that take $20 bills would be a start. A fare machine that can sell day passes and weekly passes seems pretty obvious to me.
Digital transfers, already in use in Vancouver, would allow people to pass through turnstyles rather than line up behind someone counting out pennies for their fare during rush hour. They have obvious benefits for bus drivers as well.
If it’s true that the collectors are mostly former drivers, that explains a lot. The qualifications for the two jobs are totally different. Driving a subway train hardly requires the level of customer service skill that should be offered by a ticket collector.
Moreover, intelligent commentary is not suggesting eliminating ticket collectors, but eliminating drivers. While it’s obviously an expensive upfront investment, it not only saves money on wages, but it also dramatically increases the frequency of trains (and thus passenger volume). It’s beyond me why this wasn’t done years ago. Vancouver’s skytrain was set up like this in 1986!
Nick’s point wasn’t that fares should never go up, but that spending that money to increase the quality of service (rather than simply maintaining the barely adequate status quo) will attract more riders and minimize the need for further fare hikes.
While Maloney’s assertion that the government funding is inadequate is certainly true, the fact that the TTC waited for unpaid locals to create myttc.ca instead of spending a few bucks to create their own web-based timetable shows a total lack of forethought that’s downright embarrassing to Torontonians.
mkm, live operators were NOT available on the infoline 24/7. When they were available (during office hours) all they did was look up the listed schedules available on the TTC website. It was usually faster to just figure it out yourself, until myttc.ca came along.
Ottawa’s OC Transpo has phoneable bus stop schedules (613-560-1000 and then a four-digit stop number), an effective but clunky Web 1.0 travel planner, and participates in Google Transit. I suspect that having their schedules in readily machine-readable form is what enabled all of that to happen.
My two top guesses at the TTC’s reason for spurning Google, beyond the obvious “not invented here,” are that doing so would expose either the quality of their data or their on-time performance to public ridicule. But fear not, TTC! Ottawa’s buses are often wildly off schedule, and nobody can make them do a thing about it.
Hey – Y2K was the excuse that the TTC’s (prehistoric) IT department used to trash the service. When was the last time a bus schedule system informed you the year that the bus would arrive? Neither do voice mail systems inform users the year that a message has arrived. Therefore, turn back the system clock 28 years (look up “perpetual calender”) and the Y2K problem is solved until 2027 …. but many public sector organizations fell for the FUD (Fear Uncertainty ‘n Doubt) sales tactics of Nortel and Bell Canada (Telus for western Canadians) and millions were wasted on otherwise useless “upgrades” of voice mail systems and software.
As for the discipline of union members in adhering to schedules, blame can be equally divided to indifferent staff and less than clueful management.
Also it is of little help when transit commissions put the interests of the CAW and ATU before that of riders and rate(tax)payers.
The stop in the photo is of the first generation metal type stops that were taller than the newer ones that are more common now. There are still many wooden stops in the old suburbs that have a plastic overlay overtop of the wooden post, but the bottom half of the stop is still regularly repainted in green. Any photographers out there willing to go on a TTC stop Odyssey to find all the different variations?