Thursday’s headlines

31 comments

1. If both Rossi and Thomson do well in October, it will be a clear message that Torontonians aren’t impressed with Transit City.

2. Sarah Thomson, give her credit for bring up exciting ideas. I may not agree with all her ideas, but it is way better than reverse gear of Rossi or the void of Smitherman or business as usual of Pantalone.

3. Does it matter if Torontonians are ‘impressed’ with TC? The average Torontonian seems to want a subway on every arterial, with frequent 24-hour service, no delays, spotlessly clean — all for $2 fares and with a decrease in taxes — and don’t even think about road tolls, etc. I.e., the average Torontonian is not very practical.

   The Transit City plan seems to make sense on the whole. Now, if they can build it on schedule and on budget, and smarten up about running vehicles to avoid ‘bunching’ problems… then I will be impressed.

4. The thing that disappointed me about the Giambrone things was the tweets from spacing and others – “what about Thompson, Minnan-Wong etc., much worse” and so on. The difference of course is that their wards are in the suburbs, where obviously a taxi to or from a downtown destination is going to cost more and the journey time vs TTC is less comparable due to transfers etc.

   But even then, it shouldn’t be an issue of raw numbers. There should be a taxi policy as to when journeys are appropriate and when they are not – most companies have them. Accordingly, if the taxi journeys are covered by the policy it shouldn’t matter if an individual councillor spent $20,000 on them.

   TTC commissioners like Giambrone and Thompson should concentrate on making the TTC a closer competitor to taxis for time-sensitive journeys.

5. correction to the above – I forgot Miller did not reappoint Thompson so he is NOT a current commissioner.

6. Yu: I think you mixed up “exciting” with “stupid”.

7. No, Yu had it right. I’d say this is some brilliance on Thomson’s part, even if there’s issues with the specifics of her plan.

   She gets some media exposure beyond the gender thing, and she sets things up for a broader, hopefully more intellegent debate on transit issues, rather than an unhealthy fixation by some candidates on the merits of bike lanes. The Downtown Relief Line – the one new subway line we actually really need – also gets that needed media exposure as well.

   The toll idea needs work – just tolling the Gardiner and DVP isn’t the right way to do it, but she’s brought the idea out. Her subway plan is flawed as well, and again, it could use work, but it’s not an immediately “stupid idea”.

   As much as people here like Transit City (I’m lukewarm, and always have been, about the whole thing, though there’s specific things I really do like), there’s nothing wrong with it being held up to political debate.

   If it survives – and I bet it will – then it has been proven through the trial by fire most large projects and big ideas usually get. This is the first election in which Transit City can be debated – it was launched several months after the last one, so it never got that political debate.

   So maybe we get some sort of tolls, we get the DRL, and we get much of Transit City finished. Exciting? Could very well be.

8. Matt,

   could you be more specific about what is so stupid about her ideas? OK, 58 km of subway sounds stupid in Toronto, right? But let us take a closer look: DRL, is that stupid? Eglinton? A long stretch of TC will be underground too. Extending to airport? Sounds exciting to me. North to York U and Steels, aren’t those happening anyway? Or maybe you meant road toll is really stupid?

   Anyway, if all new and bold ideas are dismissed as “stupid” in one quick sentence, then I don’t see a bright future for the city. As I said, I may not agree with all her ideas, and her $ number may be too optimistic, but credit to her for bringing something up that is worth debating.

9. I’m sorry to see that people are not impressed with transit city. I think what might be a worth while alternative to look into is instead of crippling the budget with having almost every corner served by subways, the city should try to build as much dense transit oriented development around existing subway/rt stations to help draw more people to close proximity of the rapid transit system. I know there are many stations on the Bloor-Danforth line that have hardly any recent development and with work just started on the Spadina extension and the soon to be added Yonge extension there is even more opportunity to be made. For anyone interested in reading more about transit oriented development Google up “Transit Villages in the 21st Century” by Michael Bernick and Robert Cervero. It’s an interesting book and the kind of modern transit villages it speaks of reminds me of the Scarborough Town Centre, where you have a public square, housing and shopping surrounding a rapid transit station.

10. One of the things that impresses me about Sarah Thomson’s idea is that it’s neither traditionally right-wing nor left-wing. Her plan to build subways depends both on road tolls (traditionally left-wing in Toronto) and private partnership (traditionally right-wing).

    Instead of being ideological, her approach is practical. i.e. “Toronto needs subways. This is the only way to get them. Decision made.”

    I don’t want to quibble over the details (though I could), because this is about big picture issues. We’re talking about a paradigm switch for Toronto.

    I’d barely even heard of Sarah Thomson before two days ago, but now she’s got my vote.

11. Yu,
    How dare you actually request that Matt elaborate on why he thinks something/someone is “stupid” (or “great”). Don’t you know he’s the publisher of this site and hence under no conpunction to provide reasons for his positions?

    That said, with respect to what mayoral candidate Sarah Thomson is saying about tolls, I’m not her position addresses the fallout should the City implement tolls while the rest of the GTA region doesn’t. Tolls will only likely work if the strategy is worked out at a regional level. Implementing it at a City of Toronto level will likely only accelerate the flight of jobs from Toronto to surrounding municipalities.

12. I too am lukewarm about Transit City. I like certain aspects of it (Eglinton and its midtown tunnel), and am really bothered by others (Sheppard, Don Mills). Comparing the seven planned TC lines to Sarah Thomson’s proposal, I would take her plan hands down. From a transit perspective, she’s not presenting any new ideas (Eglinton, DRL and finishing Sheppard have been debated many times), however, her plan would actually get people out of their cars, unlike Transit City. Like it or not, people won’t leave their cars at home to ride a streetcar that is only marginally faster than the existing bus service. Other than Eglinton, the other lines appear to be a waste of money. Toronto would be far better off with these new subways, and Thomson is proposing a very sensible way to pay for it.

13. Ted: that’s the problem; she’s hooked you with a promise that can no way be delivered. Subways are 10-15 projects from idea to finished product. We need transit now and the LRT can be built in 2 years in most places.

    I want subways but I want them to go where they are needed. Only a downtown relief line is truly needed at the moment. The Transit City lines deserve higher order transit than buses but do not have the density to support subways. So LRT it is. It makes the most sense.

    But to say Thomson isn’t ideological is naive at best. Read her site, her writing. She’s a neo-Con all the way. Road tolls are a neo-con thing too, but people forget that and seem to think its only a lefty issue.

14. I’ll gladly expand, Yu.

    It’s a voter grab, not an issue for debate. Its about promising the sky when you can only deliver sand. She wants lower taxes but subways everywhere. Those two ideas don’t jive.

    There is only one true subway that needs to be built at the moment: Downtown Relief Line (though completing Shepard to Scarb Town Centre would be ideal too). Any other other talk is what I call ‘stupid’. Subways are not built for neighbourhoods, they are built to push people through them. LRT, on the other hand, serves local needs much better at about 75% of the cost. You rarely ever see a bus route become a subway. Why? Cuz bus routes rarely go to places that support the density needed for subways.

    As for tolls, its just more BS talk. As much as I think tolls are the smart way to pay for things like transit, we do not have a TTC/GO system in place that provides enough options so that people can choose to leave their cars at home. Once/If Transit City is complete I think you can honestly introduce tolls. Otherwise, streets like Don Mills (next to the DVP) and the Lakeshore (next to the Gardiner) will face tremendous traffic pressure. I doubt she has a plan to deal with that.

    But if she wants to implement tolls now and not adversely affect downtown businesses the toll should be something like 25 or 50 cents. Something nominal that can still produce millions upon millions will little to no affect to the drivers. Keep raising it 25 cents a year and you’ll be able to not shock the system, so to speak.

15. I don’t care who is mayor or what gets built, as long as it involves putting more steel wheels on steel rails somewhere, anywhere. As other cities continue to progress in laying track (be it LRT, subway, commuter rail, whatever), Toronto’s once formidable lead amongst transit-oriented cities shrinks to nothing. I’m tired of being in Tier Five in this book (http://bit.ly/dyGHz9) and would like to move up a notch or at least keep pace. TC is not perfect but I’ll take it if that is all that is realistic. DRL is crazy expensive but absolutely worth it if the province/feds can be brought onboard. GO needs to be electrified and expanded if Metrolinx can get their act together. Just build!

    No more selling off old streetcars to Hicksville, Wisconsin. No more dismantling and selling tunneling equipment that could have been kept going incrementally. No more watching other cities build airport rail links while Pearson remains an island, or whole subway lines while we can’t even figure out signage.

    My vote, if I had one, would go to whoever could get something built. Not studied, not put on hold for further analysis, but built. Miller at least figured that out.

16. Matt, I’m not really clear on this. You call Sarah Thompson’s idea “stupid” but your counterpoints are all quibbles about the details: you’re in favor of the DRL, the Sheppard extension, a tunnel under Eglinton, and road tolls, all of which she advocated.

17. Andrew: She originally said (last month) all Transit City lines should be subways. Now she’s changed her tune. Its all vote mongering, not true city building.

    DRL is already on the books to be reviewed by Metrolinx starting next year, so she’s not stating anything new. Same with the tunnel of the LRT under Eglinton. I only think Sheppard should be extended east becuz of the original mistake make to build that line — might as well complete it so that a loop is created, not a dead-end.

    My counterpoints certainly aren’t quibbles: Mass congestion on arterial roads as people try to avoid $5 DVP trips? Removal of any local TTC service is place of express subways? Choosing LRT over subway in most expansion to avoid paying 75% more? I’d say those are not middling details….

18. Sarah Thomson’s plan seems to be premised on the idea that money grows on trees.

    For a weekday commuter, $5/day is $1,250 a year (or, if the toll is collected in each direction, $10/day is $2,500 a year). It’d have a huge impact on behaviour — seems like a huge chunk of DVP/Gardiner commuters would switch to city streets (slowing local surface transit as a result) or switch to transit (and GO wouldn’t even get any of the money to help them cope). But the more it affects behaviour, the less it makes money: her annual $500 million could easily drop to $250m, which means your tolls can buy roughly 2 km of subway per year.

    So I really doubt she’s found a magic way to pay for new subways. As a result the same old debates still apply, e.g. does Sheppard really have the potential usage levels to justify the cost of subway construction, regardless of past mistakes?

19. Many people insist that we shouldn’t introduce road tolls until we have adequate public transit in place for people to use as an alternative. They further argue that Transit City, once built, would be that alternative. I’m sorry to say that is not true in the least. No one who drives today is going to leave their car at home to ride a streetcar that, maybe, will be slightly faster than a bus.

    We have to start somewhere, and while the idea of road tolls on the DVP and Gardiner is flawed (and incomplete), it is a good starting point. Perhaps we also toll parallel routes. Or perhaps we tax parking south of the 401, between the Don and Humber. Regardless, new subways under Eglinton, Sheppard and the DRL corridor would serve Toronto far better than Transit City. I had given TC the benefit of the doubt at first, but after seeing what happened on St Clair, and the mediocre service that has been running since the line reopened, I’m very skeptical about spending billions on TC. I’d much rather see the $7B that has already been committed redirected to subway construction, along with some kind of road tolls or parking tax to pay the balance.

20. I will comment on this scheme in more detail on my own site in the next day or so, but I want to make an important comment here.

    Road tolls will disproportionately affect road users who, in many cases, do not have a transit alternative for their travel. A subway network in Toronto (it doesn’t really matter which of the competing proposals we might be discussing) still leaves huge amounts of travel unserved by transit, especially those trips that begin or end in the 905.

    Transit as a regional resource (leaving aside who actually runs what) should be paid for from a regional levy, and my preference is for a sales tax. If tolls are the third rail of transit politics, then a sales tax is a fourth rail (obviously an ICTS system), and nobody wants to talk about it especially with the HST about to come into force.

    Even Metrolinx’ “Big Move” does not reduce car trips in the GTA, only cuts about half off of the growth that would occur if we didn’t build more transit.

21. Anyone that wants to compare St Clair and Transit City hasn’t been paying attention to the differences. TC isn’t streetcars so to speak and streetcars are not LRT.

    People will get On LRT, Leo. It’s about the ROW. We see it happening all over the US. Data shows people make the switch to rail much easier than with buses.

    And Thomson is about as bright as a rug. Why are peoplepaying attention to someone who until January had never made a deputation at city hall or even wrote a column about city issues? The late Ben Kerr was as legit as she is when it comes to policy. Just because she’s the only women in the race doesn’t mean she’s legit. Jeez, Mammoliti has more bright ideas than her.

22. @Mork: I chose my words carefully. I said road tolls are traditionally left-wing /in Toronto/.

    I’m aware that road tolls aren’t inherently left- or right-wing. But right-wingers /in Toronto/, generally speaking, hate them (proving that right-wingers don’t care about good economics as much as they claim to).

    I’m well aware Sarah Thomson is a member of the Conservative Party. But on this issue, she’s not pandering to the Conservative voter base (if she did, she’d be Rossi), and nor is she pandering to the left-wing voter base. Instead, she’s pushing new ideas. And these ideas are of vital importance to our city.

    And that impresses me.

23. Ted: thanks for that. But still not sure anything she said was new. DRL, raod tolls are all a part of the Big Move and Metrolinx.

    If you listen to her talk about transit since she jumped into the race she’s shown next to no knowledge. I echo what Abrham says above: this is just attention-grabbing not true city building.

24. @Matthew Blackett, who says: “She originally said (last month) all Transit City lines should be subways. Now she’s changed her tune.”

    I exchanged emails with Sarah Thomson today, and she says she still wants all Toronto neighbourhoods to be served by subways one day, but the “first phase” (which she elsewhere described as 10 years, I believe) will be the extensions mentioned in her presentation. That’s not a change of tune, it’s a clarification.

    “She wants lower taxes but subways everywhere. Those two ideas don’t jive.”

    I read the press release on her website, and it seems to me that her transit promises for this election are fully costed. That’s far better than what most politicians give you during an election campaign. I mean, they all promise you the sky, but how many tell you how they’ll fund it?

25. Ted: any half witted candidate will give you numbers. Miller did for his transit proposals, Pitfield did as well, and so did Tory etc in 2003. Again, nothing new.

    But to give you an idea about how good she is with numbers read this doozy of a post:

    http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/mayor-may-not/2010/03/18/sarah-thomsons-slight-discrepancy/

    Lying about her political past is not a good starting point for me.

26. Abrhman, the problem is that the TTC has shown, over and over, that it is incapable of building or running an LRT system similar to the US and European ones you describe. I recognize that there are differences between Spadina/Harbourfront and TC. But St Clair sits somewhere in between, and is more similar in scope (road width, layout and stop spacing) to TC. I have no confidence that the TTC will be able to do any better on TC than they did on St Clair. I fully expect to see bunching on Sheppard, and sporadic service on the outer portions of Eglinton. LRT cars will waste excessive time stopped at lights and again at far-side stops. You say the TC LRT will be different, but if the TTC can’t solve these simple, straightforward problems on St Clair, how can we expect them to do so on TC?

27. Transit City is in many ways unsatisfying. It makes no sense to force a transfer on Sheppard. That subway should connect North York and Scarborough’s urban centres and encourage economic growth, while intercepting busy surface route connections. That Sheppard is not lined with density there is besides the point.

    The Eglinton LRT isn’t even fully grade separated. Eglinton is a very busy arterial with dozens of other busy arterials, and accidents at intersections are common. Blockages caused by accidents will mean delays will ripple into the underground section.

    How is the Jane LRT even supposed to be built given how narrow much of it is from Bloor to past Eglinton?

    Signal priority won’t happen. If City officials cared about that, you would have seen it on Spadina and St. Clair by now.

    Finally, I’d like to say that the biggest hypocrites in transit advocacy today are the LRT boosters who say we can’t afford subways and then promote at least $15 billion in LRT construction.

28. Hey AR:

    • You’re right about Sheppard

    • $15-billion for LRT = 120km
    • $15-billion for subway = 30km

    • Eglinton is wide west of Keele and east of Laird. Like 6 or 7 lanes wide. It was planned to be a highway at one point. As all lines they’ll be in ROWs
    • Jane is supossed to be underground from St Clair or Annette
    • Signal priority is planned for all projects

29. I’m all for Thomson’s plan, with one caveat: That only rush hour flow traffic is tolled. Those going reverse flow do not have the same alternatives of those who are commuting into the city. Even if you don’t live down the street from a TTC or GO station, it is probably faster and easier to drive or bus to these stations than drive all the way into the city. This will help push people who are on the fence between driving and taking transit into downtown towards transit, and those who have to drive for whatever circumstances (carrying goods/work materials, multiple destinations, only one end of their trip will be during transit peak period, etc) will at least enjoy a far less congested drive.

    Many comments I could reply to, but Matt L’s caught my attention. How much do you think these people already pay to drive downtown, whether it be through parking, gas, etc? For those who are close enough to the subway (or close enough that taking the bus is a viable alternative to driving), 40 tokens is $100 per month. For under/about $200 per month, you can take the GO train from as far out as Pickering, King City, or Clarkson.

30. Lisa, thirty kilometres of subway would be an incredible development for our city. That’s thirty kilometres of a proven mode of transit in Toronto that’s fully grade separated everywhere, versus a lot of upgraded tram lines. Including the Spadina extension, our subway network would be over one hundred kilometres long.

    Also, signal priority was also touted for the Spadina and St. Clair. City officials can make the sceptics into believers if they implement it on the streetcar lines currently in their own ROWs.

31. Sarah Thomson has taken a page from David Miller’s book. Promise more spending and less taxes. Torontonians fell for it twice. Third times a charm.