Canadian Urbanism Uncovered
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Just the other day I posted a video of a Berlin subway car which is very similar to the model the TTC is looking to buy. A commenter noted that the seat arrangement on the new cars would reamin in the formation we currently have, but now the TTC is once again considering perimeter seating for safety reasons. Here’s the Globe and Mail article.
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26 comments
Heaven forbid that the TTC should care one iota about customer comfort. Thank goodness Moscoe is dead set against this awful idea.
He said police, fire and ambulance workers favour perimeter seating, because it is easier to move through subway cars quickly in an emergency. The cars are also easier to evacuate than the current fleet, Mr. Webster said.
Give me a break. Has this ever been an issue? This is the same bizarre illogic that’s forcing streets in the redeveloped Regent Park to be mega-sized.
TTC staff need to start focusing on customer comfort, not far-fetched scenarios.
plus, it’s going to be easier for some joker to sprawl lengthwise and take up six seats with these things.
Yuck.
Bench seats? That’s ugly. It’s ugly… this is not New York, homes.
F*** terrorism, way too caught up in bull****. They really want people in cars again.
However, Moscoe is a funny f***er lol. Insulting as he may be… he’s at least pushing against this idea.
Fire, Police and Paramedics are trained to get through even the most crowded, constrained areas to assist others. Seats facing forward/backward is no different.
If a bomb went off in an office tower… (god forbid) would they not have to rummage or travel through the debris throughout the tightest moments of their lives anyways?
Muchless seats are a few inches closer to the aisle?
Don’t let go of Moscoe, or we’ll all take up cars sooner or later. Because then, the only ‘terrorism’ we’d have to worry on, is the gridlock on the 401, and the weather takes toll on someone’s sanity.
they have these types of cars all over europe and they’re not a problem. why all this hoopla about ‘comfort’ and ‘cattle-cars’ – this is transit – not your living room couch.
Marta, the reason why the comfort of your living room couch important is that you spend a lot of time with your butt parked on it. The same goes for transit; some people spend ten minutes, some spend thirty, and some spend hours on it a day. Plus, your living room isn’t accelerating and braking every couple of minutes.
An an aside, this has got to be a classic Moscoe quotation: “So, we make packages visible, what then? Everyone can see the bomb explode?” Hear, hear!
marta – if we want people to use transit, it has to be clean, convenient, and comfortable. If you have ugly trains with uncomfortable seats, people will just use their cars instead.
quasi is right — this is North America, cars still rule, and “little things” like discomfort could easily keep people away, and we have to address that, like it or not.
and if the reasons for discomfort….the perimeter seating….seem a little far fetched (bombs — Moscoe should stay on the TTC if only because of his bullshit-destroying quotes like the above), then let’s go for nice trains.
Yeah, if the subway gets ugly, the first thing I’m going to do is buy a car, take out yearly insurance and budget for parking, traffic-time and gasoline. Looks and seating arrangement was the only thing keeping me on the train anyway.
Michael> Not the only thing, but a thing. And things build up; personal space, personal mobility, comfort. You don’t sound like a car driver, but there are lots of people “on the edge” who could be pushed either way.
Toronto is an extremely easy to live in and comfortable city compared to other big cities — having subways that are equally comfortable sounds like a very Torontonian thing to do.
Michael – Read some of the comments on this page:
For example:
“I will admit it. Since fares went up to $2.75 per ticket — and I used the TTC at least twice a day — I’ve been driving.
Catharine Palmer, Toronto”
It doesn’t take much for people to ditch transit.
I agree, I thought the TTC were convinced to keep the seating plan. And they can’t pull the “hiding the bomb under the seat” bull, it takes nothing to just box in the area under the seats. We also have one of the widest subways in the world, why should the evacuation route through the car be an issue?
Whatever motivation they have to make bench seats is complete crap.
When I first saw the negative reaction to perimeter seating back in the Spring I was surprised. I didn’t think it would be an issue, but I was certainly wrong about that.
Personally, I don’t care, but I usually do choose a forward or backward seat when available.
There are those who will make the argument that perimetr seating allows for greater train capacity (as does the ganging of cars).
But as Thickslab notes, the TTC should heed customer advice becuz it is on shaky ground with the public these days.
i don’t understand the problem – i love bench seating, and it was my favorite feature of new york’s new cars. combined with the open concept train, it’s awesome!
what i do want, though, is apholstered seats, and i think we are mature enough not to stab them. more cushion, please.
If I’m reading a book and not sitting facing forward or back, I get motion sickness. When only perimeter seats are available, I don’t read. I’m not a fan of those perimeter seats.
I’m with Jerrold – perimeter seats don’t make for a good customer experience.
Whenever I sit in a perimeter seat in the current cars I end up sliding into whoever is sitting next to me as the train lurches to a halt.
Urk
I much prefer the normal right angle seats.
I have to agree with Kevin. When living in the NYC area they introduced the brand new 6 trains. Like all the others they use perimeter seating. Perimiter seating did take getting used to when I first got to NYC, but the new 6 trains were so bright and the colours soothing. The stops are shown on a lighted map so you can see where you are on the subway line at all times and the stops are announced by an automated system as well as being written out on an LED (?) thing. Granted I don’t get motion sick, but I too was very surprised by the vehement opposition to this type of seating. It’s really not that bad. People get used to everything. It’s just different. Like when the old comfy couch-like bench seating on the TTC subways got replaced with the red seats which are individual seats divided by metal, which can get uncomfortable if you’re even slightly overweight. Just my 2 cents.
Other cities (NYC, London, etc) may have perimeter seating, but the cars are narrower. The TTC’s subway cars are amongst the widest in the world, so there’s plenty of room with the mixed seating, which passengers continue to express their preference for. The TTC engineers are out to lunch, and I just love how they now play the “terrorism” card, after being beaten fair and square.
Well, I guess that is why Toronto isn’t a transit city. I’m curious to find out how many TTC riders are “on-the-edge”? What do you think it could be,25, 50, 75%?
Suzan, you defeat your own argument. You say people get used to everything but clearly there are people who still find the “new” seats uncomfortable, as opposed to old-style bench seating, as you mention. They’re not “used” to it at all, but they have to tolerate it because that’s all we’ve got.
And I agree with you there; the benches, the ones upholstered in vinyl, tend to be better-stuffed too. Maybe we should change back to bench seating, which better accomodates every body size, but retain the current orientations of seats.
gloria, i may have been unclear in what i said. i just meant that personally i like the perimeter seating and many others do as well. what i meant to express was that for those who have an initial aversion, it may just be a psychological reaction and that they would get used to it, the way people do. anyhow, my comment wasn’t intended to generate any kind of real debate, it was just an observation.
My first thought when I read about these proposed changes was that they should model the cars after Berlin’s system. Those cars feel wide open and much bigger, not to mention easier to move around in; advantages that I’d say far outweigh any of the criticisms mentioned above.
Why is everyone, including Moscoe, assuming that these perimeter seats will be uncomfortable? Has someone actually sat on one of the ones proposed for Toronto or something?
With the exception of those pleading motion sickness, I’m curious how those of you using “comfort” as the justification for your opposition to these cars are at this moment able to assess how it will make your ass feel.
I don’t remember any of the trains with perimeter seating in the UK being uncomfortable. In fact, I remember them being quite plush and comfy–like a bench made out of Greyhound seats. The big difference was that I ended up rubbing elbows with more people. Is that what people are concerned about? The possibility of sitting next to more strangers?!
Isn’t the avoidance of motion sickness part of “comfort”? Some also plead neck and back strain due to the stop-and-go motion of the train.
I am in favor of perimeter seating. Posters have suggested that people can lie down on the bench and take up more space. However, it can be easily addressed by dividing the bench into sections. For example, the Hong Kong subway has perimeter seating divided into 6 indented seats, so people will not slide.
The current seating plan has its draw backs as well. Many passengers like to sit on the seat away from the window. Larger passengers who insist on sitting away from the window make it very difficult for passengers to enter the empty seat close to the window.
The perimeter seating also gives passengers more room to move, and makes getting in and out of seats easier (You don’t have to squeeze past passengers). The cars will also be easier to clean. I’ve talked to people who choose driving over TTC because the subway, to be honest, is often very dirty. But thats a separate issue.
ooo i got an idea, maybe they should put rows of seats in the middle of the subway? facing back and front?
________
[ ]
| ====== |
| ====== |
| ====== |
| ====== |
[________] = represents seating
*the sides are available for those to stand
*room is available for passengers to get off without disturbing others
*spacious
*comfortable (i’d love the seating to be more cushioned?)
*motion sickness free for Jerold
just a random idea i wanted to share *=)