Réimaginons la rue St-Viateur, part 3 : Le féru de vélo

12 comments

1. nooooooo!!!! separated (segregated) bike lanes no!!!!!

   Have you ever tried to turn right (or even sometimes left) on the de-Maisonneuve bike path? its a fucking hassle!! (with all the bikes coming from the other way and the cars sometimes not expecting you to cross).
   What about pedestrians clogging in the corner!…

   St. Viateur is a “LIVE” street…if you order it with frontiers and rules and all that it wont work…im more on the side of:
   1. bike boxes in major intersections that have “red lights” (St. L/ St. Urbain/ Parc, etc) (http://www.streetfilms.org/portland-green-bike-box/)
   2. “shared (slow) streets” with cars…
   remove one parking lane (to extend and “green” sidewalks)
   with intelligent diverters to gain more sidewalks space and reduce car speed (http://www.streetfilms.org/animation-semi-diverter/)
   (and dont forget chicanes: http://www.streetfilms.org/chicane-animated-traffic-calming/)

   But i mean…a million versions of an improved street can be done, who and how is gonna decide what version is gonna be implemented?

2. I’m from Portland (here only for school), where your above clip is posted from Christian. I have to say Montreal has a long way to go before they can even attempt to be claiming the term bike-friendly like Portland does. In fact, I think this city is just not friendly to transit at all. It is poorly designed for bikes, cars, and pedestrians.

   But I just want to point out one thing that has really irked me about this city. MANY bicyclists do not behave responsibly AT ALL! I rarely see headlights, backlights, reflective gear, or helmets. Believe it or not, but in Portland and other bike-friendly cities, police stop you and sometimes even ticket you for not riding responsibly. The bike friendliness of a city is also determined by the riders.

   But here, bicyclists are constantly running red lights, AND NEVER SIGNAL on turns. I get that in a city where traffic laws are rarely enforced for cars and people consistently break the law in giant vehicles, why should bicyclists? But it harms this debate for bicyclists to be as irresponsible, or worse than drivers. And besides, it is FAR more dangerous! I’m scared to ride my bike in this city, even with a helmet and lights. Everyone is out for themselves, and there seems to be very little respect or patience on the roads and sidewalks.

   If you want to talk about making the city more livable, there has to be some ownership of the problems by everyone. There is a culture of entitlement here that is way beyond systemic. I’m entitled to turn whenever I want and wrong way on a one way street, I’m entitled to throw my trash off my back porch onto my neighbor’s yard, I’m entitled to sit and complain about minorities even though I’m a minority.

   I find it funny that Quebec deems itself to be so superior to the rest of the continent, claiming its livability to be above that of TO or anywhere in the US. But I feel that constant attacks on each other without claiming responsibility for one’s own part, negates real progress with pressing issues, from policies relating to the homeless, to language, to city planning– and makes this city virtually inhospitable. Obviously it goes without saying that this is the major problem in many East Coast US cities, but if Montreal is going to claim to be better than those places, y’all need to start stepping up to the plate!

   Also, why are you spending so much time messing with St. Viateur? There are SO many streets in the city, even if you wanted to stay near to Mile End, that need help more.

3. I have to agree with both the commentors above, though I don; think that Montreal is in quite as bad shape as Anne implies. Compared to Portland this is no bike paradise and it’s true that nobody seems to know how to signal in this town (cars, bikes, trucks, light aircraft).

   Overall I just don’t see any reason to change this section of St. Viateur, it’s already one of the best streets in the city. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke, you just risk making it worse instead of better.

   So let’s go get some lights for our bikes!

4. cheese: from a non-montrealer’s perspective: yes it is really bad!
   anne: you’re right in that mentality of montrealers is very bad – but it’s not only the cyclists. drivers regularly accelerate to pass when it just became red, enroach/block on pedestrians/cyclists space and right-of-way and 50% of the time do not signal, illegal u-turns and so on. pedestrians regularly obstract bicycle-only paths and cross streets running without looking (when they hear no car arriving, missing out on bicycles). so personally i don’t care for the rules anymore, i care for my own safety and at the same time advance as fast as possible. it was an adjustment for me!

   i come from a country where rules in traffic are respected and i think that is the normality, not the situation in montreal. it may be the latino mentality? when confronted they often apologize (they do not seem very conscient of their behaviour)

   i’m often scared when cycling because of this behaviour (from cars, since those are the ones who are able to significantly hurt me). if city streets were designed so that no one could go faster than 30km/h, disrespecting rules would not be dangerous, just be an annoyance instead and it could even work better without rules for everybody …

   another thing i noticed here while people in montreal are generally very nice, once they are behind a steering wheel they turn into ‘road supremacists’. never dare to slow them down even for a few seconds for ‘lesser traffic’ in their right to own the road!

5. Hmm… I grew up in Vancouver, which I imagine is very similar to Portland: cyclists all wear helmets and have lights and reflectors, cars come to a halt for pedestrians wanting to cross the street, bicycles and pedestrians don’t cross on red, and even the flashing hand is respected.

   I’d say that in more rule-based places, people take great comfort in knowing that they’re doing their own little part to keep things pleasant for those around them, but it’s not the only way to live. The attitude which you call entitlement to me is one of personal freedom. I like that Montrealers don’t put much value on following the rules or being a model citizen. The attitude here is more one of: do what you want, and I’ll do what I want. If you bother me then I’ll let you know; otherwise, who am I to tell you how you should lead your life?

   I like how fewer things are divided into good or bad here… there’s less an idea that there if only everyone did the right thing, we’d have a perfect society, and the reason we don’t is because all those bad people over there are doing things wrong. Instead, good and bad is more flexible, laws are not always a good way to judge moral behaviour, and there is much more acceptance of transgressions.

   If we are to be a model of a livable city (and hey, why not), then let it be how pleasant a city can be without much attention paid to rules. I personally don’t think the rule-following or rule-bending approach is better or worse; it’s more that some people prefer one way or another, that’s all. Here, things still seem to work out well: most people take pride in making their yards beautiful, our streets are cleaner than most cities in the world, most people get to where they’re going without any problems, only a minority seems to complain about minorities, and most people seem generally happy with their lives.

   And as a Montrealer, my reaction to your specific complaints are: if you don’t want to cross on red, don’t do it, and be happy that you don’t. If you want to criticize me when I cross on red, that’s your choice and go for it, but I ain’t gonna stop or even agree that I’m doing anything bad; unlawful, sure, but not wrong. If you throw your trash in my yard, expect me to come knocking on your door. If you want to complain about minorities: go ahead, but don’t be surprised if I don’t stick around to listen.

   In practice, I tend to ignore red lights as a pedestrian but respect them on my bike, and I rarely use hand signals unless I’m doing something unusual like switching lanes in traffic. (I’ve also noticed that drivers use their signals this way, too: if I need to squeeze in, I’ll put my signal on to warn you; if there’s enough room for me to do it safely without, I won’t bother.) Strangely enough, I feel safer on my bike here than I did in Vancouver. Here, people drive (and ride) more aggressively, but I feel that they are much more aware of what’s around them, of how big their cars really are, and of how traffic flows.

   In terms of statistics: I found at http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp2436-rs200401-p5_table11%20-404.htm (Pedestrian injuries by jurisdiction of 100,000 or more) that at 48.6 fatalities per 100,000, Québec is indeed higher than the Canadian average of 43.8, but lower than B.C. at 50.6. In terms of bicycle injuries, I found at http://www.cher.ubc.ca/cyclingincities/injury.html Montreal had 902 treated by ambulance, whereas B.C. on a whole had 1,268 hospitalized — difficult to say which is worse.

6. “If we are to be a model of a livable city (and hey, why not), then let it be how pleasant a city can be without much attention paid to rules.”

   While I do respect your opinion, and I really do… I just don’t think this exists. Also, it is pretty well known that BC has the highest rates of cycling in Canada, so one would expect more injuries just based on that fact (I can’t find rates, call me lazy). However, I think the argument can be made that more people cycle to work in BC because they feel safer to do so. The weather is really not much better in BC for cycling, especially when you factor in that very few people anywhere are gonna cycle through the winter months (I’ve cycled year round in Oregon, and I can tell you going through the fog and rain is much worse than a very cold, but sunny day here).

   My post was emotional, because I love biking. It is literally my favorite thing to do. But I am very scared to do so here. I recently brought back my bike from Oregon, in the hopes of getting into it. But I have to say that I feel very scared not only because of the drivers, but also the fellow bicyclists. And, unfortunately I disagree with you Tristou, I feel that this city would benefit greatly to more enforcement of the rules of the road (for everyone). Respecting others does not come naturally to many, and if tickets or stops by the police help with that, then so be it. Well, I wish it would be, anyway.

7. I think the biggest problem in Montreal is that cyclists have no invitation to bike. There are not many well designed (and/or designated) bikeways. Maisonneuve was a breaktrough when it was implemented… but how bike-friendly is it? No wonder everyone runs the red light, you can’t go 2 blocks without coming to a stop. The signals timing should help cyclists flow and encourage them to use the expensive path. As a 12-month bike commuter, i use Maisonneuve for a very short section each morning simply because going west Sherbrooke climbs and Maisonneuve is flat and for a short section, i know i can get 3 lights in a row if i’m fast enough… and that’s the problem… i can’t be “slow-biking” on Maisonneuve if i want it to be efficient at the same time because i’ll stall at pretty much every corner.

   In all, i understand fully why not everyone feels welcome on the streets of Montreal as a bicyclist. Buses and Taxis are pissed at each other… and then the Buses take on the cyclists… And the taxis take-on the BIXI program… but what can cyclists do? Is there a bicycle commuter union? Is there an organization the represents the everyday cyclists’ interests in all of this?

   So yeah, i think Montreal needs to step it up. Put cars way behind cycling, walking and public transit so that it becomes attracting to cycle and walk in the city. For as long as you’ll find easy parking and fast commute by car to work, people will not be tempted to cycle to work. If you take your bike/ped infrastructure up a notch, then you’ll have a liveable city and liveable streets.
   (off-topic from Saint-Viateur… i know)

8. Helmets have nothing to do with responsibility or cycle-friendly environments: they are virtually unknown in the most cycling friendly cities on earth, or at least in the Western world, Amsterdam and Copenhagen.

   Lights, on the other hand, are mandatory there (as here) and it is enforced. But most of all, EVERYONE learns how to cycle safely as children, and this also means that drivers are cyclists as well and watch out for bikes.

9. I’m just back from Amsterdam where I often visit for work reasons, so I guess I’ll have a lot to say about everyday urban cyclng. I was writing in English because I was responding to some comments above, par contre l’article est en français…

   Due to my experience there and in other cities becoming more cycling-friendly, such as Paris, I strongly disagree with C Scott about dedicated bicycle lanes. So-called “vehicular cycling” is not really accessible to cyclists of all ages and physical abilities, from 8 to 88 at least! Indeed la piste Rachel and la piste Claire-Morrissette (on Maisonneuve) have serious design problems as half-measures. Rachel should be on either side of the street, and the eastbound lane in the city centre should be on Ste-Catherine.

   anne is very negative about our society. She can live elsewhere in North America if she prefers. Our society has a lot of problems as all societies do, but I prefer it 100-fold to the fucking United States that doesn’t even have public healthcare and still has the death penalty, unlike civilised countries. Nuff said.

   I think a bicycle lane on avenue du Parc and improvement of the St-Urbain lane would be higher priorities than a cycle path along Saint-Viateur, though the latter would be a good idea as it is an important street across Mile-End, but doesn’t have a bus route as Bernard does – not that the 160 passes very often, alas! Public transport, including more frequent buses and a tramline on avenue du Parc, are also important factors in reducing car use in our city.

10. Hmm… not all Americans are pleased with their healthcare system nor agree with capital punishment you know. And you can come from elsewhere and still have the right to criticize what bothers you about how we live here — especially since you have the experience of a different way of living.

    When I was in my early 30’s, I did a cross-cultural exchange program for which we had tons of training on cultural differences, studying our own preferences and biases, and learning about how we adapt to different cultures when WE become the stranger and even how we go through reverse culture shock on returning.

    There is the cultural U of adaptation: at first, most people start at the top of the U and love the new culture. Everything is so different and interesting and even ordinary things are somehow more exotic. Then, slowly, we go down the U, and little things start bothering us — the way people are rude (or inversely, how complicated the etiquette rules are), how tasteless (or unbearably spicy) the food is, how nosy (or aloof) strangers are. Around 80% of people then go up the U, keeping some of their values and adapting others to what’s around them. Around 10% of people end up rejecting the culture, seeing things as seriously flawed or simply wrong. And around 10% never go down the U at all, but instead reject their cultural norms completely and take on the new ones.

    When I moved to Montreal, I agreed with Anne’s frustration — Montrealers struck me as selfish, almost arrogant, in that they seemed not to care about how their actions affected others around them. They all seemed to be doing what they wanted, not caring about the society as a whole. I also found it confusing that they appeared to be behaving rudely, and yet when called upon (i.e., your standing on the left madame) they became all polite and moved over.

    I use the example of sitting on the bus: in “polite” societies, you’re supposed to sit down and take up only your seat so that others can sit down in their seat — it’s part of being polite and helpful and keeping things running nicely and smoothly for everyone. Here, people sit down and make themselves comfortable, gladly taking up some of the empty seat beside them. However, when someone comes along and sits down, they adjust and take up less space. The idea is why should I not be comfortable or do what I want as long as it bothers no-one, and I trust that they’ll tell me when it does bother them.

    Another example is crossing the street. In rule-following places, everyone stands waiting for the hand at the corner, the little walk man says go, and everyone goes. In rule-bending places, you look to see if there are cars, if there are, you wait. If there aren’t, you cross. In particularly bad traffic, you cross lane by lane.

    The secret is that both systems work, and people still manage to fill up the seats on the bus and cross the street. It’s when these two different rules meet that we have misunderstandings, and one cries rude neanderthal and the other cries mon dieu que tu pètes plus haut que le trou chérie :)

11. Thank you Tristou for the very enlightening explication on ‘cultural adaptation’. I have lived in quite a few different places in the world and I always seem to adapt well wherever I am. On the other hand, I do not have much patience for people who apply their particular values to other places…. We should all have the dignity to respect one another’s differences.

    I also find it odd when people associate ‘bicycle culture’ with a certain kind of look or behaviour or even infrastructure. For me, Montreal is by far the most bike-friendly city that I have ever lived in (and I have lived in Berkeley California and I frequently visit both Portland and Vancouver)! Why? Because the bicycle is not some sort of political/social/fashion statement here; it is just a means of transportation that is widely used by all kinds of people. Riding a bicycle should be just as natural as walking. No special clothing or gadgets required – anything with two wheels will do just fine.

12. Emile, merci beaucoup pour cette serie d’explorations. Les idees et les echanges sont tres interessants….

    Vous etes tous invites ce Lundi soir chez Café Le Cagibi pour un Café citoyen avec Mile-End sans voitures / Car Free Mile-End

    http://www.mileendsansvoitures.com/
    -ou- sur Facebook
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=105287682834032&ref=mf