A Spacing-produced rendering of LRT service on Eglinton east of Laird
Some of you may have saw the article in our headlines post about the TTC and Metrolinx being at odds over what form of mass transit should be developed on Eglinton Avenue. The TTC’s Transit City plans call for LRT service (streetcars, but faster and stops spaced out like a subway line) from the Pearson airport in the west to Kennedy Station in the east, with a buried section from Keele to Laird.
We want to know what Spacing readers think? Should Eglinton be an LRT route or a subway line?
53 comments
“Should Eglinton be an LRT route or a subway line?”
“Should my ass smell, or the sun shine out of it?”
This is Toronto. We might get an LRT as slow as Spadina, if we are good little boys and girls and wait for Christmas (or another two decades).
That’s the attitude that makes it impossible to get anything done in this city.
That’s the attitude that I got from living in this city.
Give me a break. Although I’m only 38, have lived in Toronto only five of those years, have always supported public transit and voted for candidates who do, my attitude is the cause of so few infrastructure improvements in thirty years. It’s not the Conservative governments voted in by car-driving 905 ridings, nor negligent Liberal governments.
Talk sense, Mike.
Lets see, it costs roughly 10 times the amount to build a subway as an LRT line, so for the same amount of money, we get a 3km subway line to nowhere, kinda like the Sheppard line, or we can get a 30km LRT line, from one side of the city to the other. This shouldn’t be hard to figure out.
LRT
Despite common perception, LRT is not just a poor man’s subway, it has advantages of its own.
Subways cannot serve the type of local transit that is required for Eglinton. There is absolutely no evidence that this will enter the realm of subway ridership in the next 40 years. Best of all, a LRT can be built in less than 4 years, whereas subways tend to take over a decade, that is if they aren’t canceled by a change in government mid-way. A very real concern, we have had that happen a number of times to our city.
But above all, LRT service will do wonders to make Eglinton into a true Avenue which is walkable and has medium-density throughout, rather than isolated clusters of condo towers that the subway tends to promote.
It’s especially frustrating for the TTC in this situation, given that Metrolinx wants to build the thing, but then the TTC will have the burden to cleaning, staffing, and maintaining the stations, escalators, elevators, and all the rest that is involved in subway stations. And we already know the TTC is barely capable of maintaining the stations have today given their operating budgets.
Let’s not forget that 10 km of the LRT line will be underground. That’s a pretty substantial subway anyways.
Putting LRT on Eglinton would leave more money for a subway where it’s actually needed, for the downtown relief line.
This poll should be:
“Should we get the TransitCity network, with five new routes across the city? Or should we get half of an Eglinton subway line?”
If you don’t look at the consequences of each decision, it’s hardly a fair comparison.
The Transit City concept gives us a network at a reasonable cost. It would be a big mistake to consider just one line, like Eglinton, without considering how it works with all the possible connections to other places in the city. With Transit city you can get to, say Don Mills/Eglinton to Jane/Finch using an order of transit higher than a bus.
Sure a subway would be better than an LRT route but at what cost? Would other LRT be not be built because the capital was used on a subway on Eglinton line? Would the operating deficit of a subway on Eglinton mean less transit in other parts of the city.
Ian, given the experience of, quote, LRT, endquote, in this city, I would take half a subway over a TransitCity network with K new routes across the city, where K is any positive integer.
In particular, given the design errors on both Spadina and Harbourfront: short stop spacing, no traffic priority, single ended cars, far side stops, no POP fares, among others; and especially given that all these errors were repeated on St. Clair, I can say with some certainty that TransitCity is going to be a big disappointment. I have seen enough LRT implementations in enough other cities to realize that the existing LRT in Toronto is an embarrassment, even by North American standards, and there’s no reason to spend billions on more LRT until the TTC shows that it can build and operate it properly.
I have no qualms with people questioning the success of Toronto’s current ROWs for streetcars, but to constantly compare them to Transit City is silly. The TTC has clearly stated from Day 1 that this project is not streetcars: its LRT on ROWs with 400 metre spacing between stops.
Eglinton is not going to be as slow as Spadina, will be tunneled for 2/5th of its legnth, etc etc.
The only thing I would say is build the tunnel to subway specs. Sure it may cost $1billion more, but it will save us money in the long run. And if Metrolinx can live with it, then the province should be theones to kick in the extra dough to make the tunnel subway compatiable for the future.
There should be another option in this poll… Skytrain/RT technology (one of the options Metrolinx is considering). Upgrade the RT line with better cars and extend it using the Eglinton Corridor to the airport. Canada Line in Vancouver cost $80 million/km of public money using a PPP, no reason we can’t do the same. Using that figure an Eglinton ALRT/Skytrain would be about $2.5 billion of public money (Transit City plan is $2.2 billion) with the private firm covering cost overruns. This would result in faster speeds, lower operating costs (automated) and higher frequency than LRT.
Julia says: “The TTC has clearly stated from Day 1 that this project is not streetcars”
Surely you’ve seen the TTC-produced TransitCity ads in the subways that say, “Where no *streetcar* has gone before” (emphasis mine)? At the very least, the TTC is sending mixed messages.
And I think the comparison to other TTC street-level ROW rail is quite relevant, especially since far side stops have been proposed for TransitCity lines as well.
Tunnels “may cost $1billion more, but it will save us money in the long run.” Not likely. Take that billion, invest it for the five decades before we’d get a subway on Eglington…
There are certainly arguments for both, but Transit City will cost a lot more than “half a subway”. Eglinton is the centrepiece of Transit City, and it alone will cost 2-3 Billion. Given that the Sheppard line from Yonge to Don Mills cost about $1Billion (more in today’s dollars), we’d have more than half a subway if this was an either/or between Eglinton subway and Transit City as a whole. Also consider that the TTC often overbuilds its subway stations, and that starting a brand new line is more expensive, due to new connecting and tail tracks, than extending a current one. On a per-kilometre basis, the cost of building a new subway drops the longer it is.
There’s also the option, mentioned by Richard Soberman in the article, that’s intriguing. He suggests that we use the ICTS technology (used with limited success in Scarborough and Detroit, used very well in Vancouver, Kuala Lumpur, and similar examples exist in the London Docklands and elsewhere), since we’re going to expand the SRT anyway with new equipment anyway. Vancouver is able to move a lot of people with ICTS, as their trains are spaced very close together in peak periods, and fully automated. It’s a thought that’s not reflected in the poll.
Re: Pete
“Canada Line in Vancouver cost $80 million/km of public money using a PPP”
Canada Line in Vancouver is in fact not ALRT like Scarborough, it is LRT, built via cut and cover.
I agree with others in this comment thread, the poll should have a third option as described by Richard Soberman to reflect the true options being discussed by planners.
Are you kidding, Have you been on the queen / king car lately. This area needs Subway before Eglinton. King and Queen are used by residents, tourists, commuters etc. These area’s are 24 hour operations, offices by day, bars and resturant by night. Not like sleepy Eglington.
I’m just of the opinion, with no insult intended to anyone else’s, that setting up a LRT would not only be easier, but cheaper in the long run on Eglinton, especially after the boondoggle that was and is the Sheppard Subway.
We want to get the emphasis on transit now or in the near future.
kettal, my mistake I though the ‘A’ stood for automated…. in any case, some sort of automated, entirely grade separated light rail system would be a good option to consider.
Do not think of Spadina or St. Clair as examples of the LRT for Eglinton. Think of the Montreal Metro but using low-floor rail vehicles. The new cars will be the same wide as a Montreal Metro car.
The low-floor light rail vehicle length will be 30 m, 7 m longer than the ALRV (23.2m) or 15 m longer than the CLRV, or 8 m longer than a current subway car. That is the minimum length, however, a train of 2 or more LFLRV’s could be coupled together for more capacity.
I think the problem is when people think LRT or streetcar they think of King and Queen and the problems they both have.
The Eglinton LRT wouldn’t share the road with cars. The road is large enough and with enough space around it to accommodate a true right of way. Many areas have enough space to even warrant a separate LRT line side by side with the roadway so there wouldn’t even be any of that pesky crossing the road to get to the LRT business.
Additionally, Spadina, Queen, Dundas and King have the problem of being in areas where crossroads are closely spaced. Much of Eglinton exists in areas where blocks are spread out much further, meaning less delays at lights. Busier sections can be built underground and still be cheaper than a subway.
If we’re serious about light rail on Eglinton, here’s how we can do it.
1. Extend St. Clair north to Eglinton and then west in two branches to the airport and Mississauga and run with Transit City, not downtown streetcars.
2. While the rail is being built along Eglinton West, start tunnelling. This will take a while.
3. When the tunnel between Keele and Laird is ready, divert service through it but retain the St. Clair trackage so that in the event of the tunnel being blocked cars can divert to St. Clair West/St. Clair.
But TTC aren’t serious about Eglinton, because if they were, they would be prioritising the Environmental Assessment for that line, as the public has voted, not Finch West and Sheppard East.
The only thing that’s certain in this debate is that any government that raises taxes or institutes road tolls to pay for transit expansion in Toronto will be absolutely decimated by voters. Everyone wants rapid transit but unfortunately, history gives the impression that no-one wants to pay for it.
Here are some things I like about Eglinton West: spacious sidewalks; a wide variety of stores, shops and restaurants; the changing topography; the independent strip mall appeal, if you don’t count the big No Frills.
The thing is that Eglinton isn’t very wide. Building a ROW streetcar line, it will knock off at least two lanes of car traffic. I take the 32 bus often and do my best to avoid it during rush hour as it’s usually bumper to bumper. An LRT line will be incredibly convenient for transit commuters but will make driving along Eglinton, as an East-West artery or access to and from the Allen, a nightmare. The cit will likely have to cut down a significant amount of sidewalk space as well to accommodate the LRT line and car traffic.
The fact of the matter is that Eglinton (West, at least) isn’t as wide as Spadina or St. Clair unless we start chopping the sidewalks.
Is it weird that when I watch a Superman cartoon and he swirls in a giant whirlwind that spirals into the earth to create a trench to divert some lava, that I think “Wow, if Superman was real, he could totally build subway systems all over the world!”
If Metrolinx is involved in the design and construction of the LRT lines, then I think that they will be built to higher standards than the current streetcar right of ways. But we could use a northern crosstown rapid transit line, and Eglinton is already an avenue of midrise buildings containing apartments and commercial blocks. It passes through York, which is dense with many high rise apartments. Past Renforth, there are numerous offices.
With additional condominium and commercial development, and the link to airport, this line would be well used.
Don’t even consider Scarborough RT technology for any expansion of Toronto’s transit network. It’s proprietary, it’s almost as expensive as a subway, and worst of all, it’s unreliable in winter so the line would probably be built underground.
Either we use LRT or we use subway technology. I suggest the former because the latter is horribly expensive and will be underused for many years. Of course, transit priority (lacking on Spadina/St. Clair) is necessary for this to work, but LRT works perfectly well in Europe.
Really we should take public transit out of the hands of politicians.
I say subways,
increases total area dedicated to transportation
dedicated, uninterrupted lines
and most importantly of all to me, no tracks to knock me to the ground when riding my bike.
heck, perhaps one day, all transportation above ground on the surface could be human powered. It would be nice and quiet and relaxing.
mmmmmmmmmm the thought makes me feel good.
ohh… time to go to sleep I think.
The density is certainly high enough now for mass transit and there would be a lot of economic spinoffs from building something (look at all the new condos on Shepperd.)
Just build something. Combine the best of both approaches. Do it now.
Far better poll question: which should be built first, the Eglinton LRT line or the Sheppard East/Finch West LRT line?
Of course, asking that would require stepping outside boosterism.
I look forward to riding the Eglinton LRT in my retirement the way things are going.
LRT is the more cost-effective option, it will not be built like St. Clair or Spadina, which are NOT LRT lines. They are streetcar lines using Private Right of Way. People think they are LRT because St. Clair and Spadina happen to use ROW for the streetcar lines.
To follow on James Mallon’s thoughts… I remember reading something in the mid-80s that said the Sheppard Subway should up and running by 1993. It opened in 2002. The Scarborough LRT was supposed to open in 1980 with the subway extension. It opened as the RT in 1985. I remember going to Kennedy Stn on opening day in 1980 and thinking “It’s going to be another 4 years before they open the line upstairs???” Wonder why James thinks it’ll take a long time?
The Eglinton line is about the only part of Transfer City that makes much sense and even it will be dumping the majority of its riders onto the Y-U-S subway. But at least it does run right across town rather than dead-ending at the subway as do the rest of the Transfer City lines. So in theory at least, it would be more of a full-fledged, mass-transit line.
Of course, a downtown, east-west, subway line is the obvious priority but our mayor is bound and determined to ignore downtown in new transit planning using his mantra that it is already “well-served” by transit. He fails to understand that mass transit is about serving the whole, of which downtown is the heart. So instead we will get a bunch of ill-conceived, outlying, local lines which will flood the existing subways.
When Transit City was first announced, I thought it was going to be great for Toronto. However, after the Sheppard East LRT community meetings, my support has all but disappeared. Let’s not kid ourselves here: if the City refuses to activate transit signal priority on Harbourfront, Spadina, St Clair, and even at busy exits to bus terminals at subway stations such as Don Mills (where it’s quite common to see a bus waiting close to TWO MINUTES to turn onto Don Mills or Sheppard), why would anyone think there will be transit signal priority on the Transit City routes? It’s simply NOT going to happen. And when you add to that the fact the TC will have far-side stops, it’s going to make for a slow, cumbersome ride on these routes. Just imagine this: A TC LRT vehicle is heading westbound along Eglinton Ave E and the transit light turns red just as the vehicle arrives at Don Mills Rd. It then waits while N/S traffic gets their left turn signal, followed by N/S through traffic, followed by E/W left turns. Then, finally, our LRT vehicle gets the green on the transit signal. But wait! It still has to stop again at the far side of the intersection because that’s where the TC stop will be located.
A subway on Eglinton is a better choice for this route, even if means sacrificing some of the other TC routes, which would only end up being disappointments anyway. What’s the point of spending money on TC, when all it will really be is a glorified bus route on rails that will be nominally faster than the existing bus routes being replaced? May as well just keep the existing bus routes, to be perfectly honest.
As for the underground LRT portion on Eglinton, I shudder to think how the TTC will handle it. This portion would obviously require more vehicles than the outer ends, which implies a sort of interlined operation. Heaven knows the TTC’s track record on this type of operation is brutal, both on the street (think Kinston Rd/Queen) as well as in the subways.
If the City and TTC are serious about what Transit City can do (and be), they should start by making the City’s Transportation department activate transit signal priority on existing city ROWs and bus terminals. The sad truth is that they have been unable to accomplish this for well over a decade now, and I honestly don’t see that changing for Transit City.
“A subway on Eglinton is a better choice for this route, even if means sacrificing some of the other TC routes, which would only end up being disappointments anyway.”
So you’re saying it’s more likely that we will spend billions of dollars on a Eglinton subway, rather then have transit priority at stop lights.
Leo: Agreed. Toronto has been very badly served by streetcar advocates who make grandiose promises, which the implemented system fails to deliver. As a chief example … I wish I could find the reference … but during the last election Joe Mihevc was quoted as comparing the St. Clair ROW to a “mini-subway”.
Before building TransitCity, the TTC should improve its operations and design on Spadina and St. Clair, to demonstrate that it is actually competent at designing and operating LRT. I don’t think this is an unreasonable condition for the expenditure of billions of dollars, especially if your aim in the first place is to be saving money.
The way it is now, it’s like you hired a cheap contractor to build your garage, which he totally screws up, but then you say, “With all the money I saved, I can have the same guy build me a new house! I’m sure he learned his lesson!” No, thanks.
Important cities have subways. Not-so-important cities have LRT.
New York City has subways. Buffalo has LRT.
Just saying.
“So you’re saying it’s more likely that we will spend billions of dollars on a Eglinton subway, rather then have transit priority at stop lights.”
A sad as that sounds, I have to say yes. How many years ago did Harbourfront and Spadina open? How many times have we been promised transit signal priority on those routes? There comes a time when you have to realize it will never happen. And if it can’t happen it a supposedly transit-friendly part of the city – downtown – how can we expect it to happen in the inner suburbs, were the car reigns even more supremely?
Leo: we’ve never been promised signal priority on those lines. Transportation Services would never do that.
Mike Dub: Madrid, Berlin, Amsterdam, Copenhagen…. are important cities that have LRT.
“we’ve never been promised signal priority on those lines. Transportation Services would never do that.”
Yes, but without transit signal priority, TC will be a huge flop. Why bother building a line on Sheppard, for example, when there is still plenty of room on the street for more buses? Without signal priority, the LRT won’t be much faster than the buses they are replacing (it’s debatable whether a difference will even be noticeable), so what’s the point? Miller and his gang are touting TC as an affordable alternative to subways. But the way it’s going to be built, we may as well keep our buses which provide almost as good a service, for a fraction of the cost of TC.
Re buses vs LRT: The problem on major routes is that with the land use changes in the Official Plan, demand will outstrip the capability of buses, but will come nowhere near the level needed to justify a subway line.
Re LRT vs subway (or RT): Much as I like participatory democracy, a decision like this should be made on an informed basis considering how the line will function, what riding it will attract, how it fits into the overall network and what it will cost to build and operate.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation in many quarters about transit alternatives and about the hard decisions we must take if we are going to change the balance in road space usage from cars to transit.
Subways are the panacea everyone wants, but nobody wants to pay for. If you vote for it, get ready to shell out to pay for it.
I support the overall idea of Transit City but I too would love to see what the TTC/City can do with signal priority first. If there’s no will to implement signal priority, there’s no point to building the Transit City network.
And I stand by my earlier comment that any government that the public perceives as increasing taxes or instituting fees for the benefit of Toronto will be smacked around by voters outside the city — and some inside it too!
Is it just me, or does this sound a lot like ‘divide and conquer”? The proponents of the expensive, disruptive, and attention-grabbing subway proposal are suburban ex-mayors. Old hands at this game, I’m sure. The subway proposal is meant to divide supporters of transit, and tie up pro-transit activists’, politicians’, and organizations’ precious time and money in a pointless debate.
Regarding the criticisms of Spadina and St.Clair: Too true! At their core, they were subsidies by transit users (via diverted capital and operating funds from better projects and service) for automobile users. However, there is a silver-lining. Their faults are relatively easily and cheaply fixable – the ROWs are in place. It will take the next generation to do the fixing, after the current crop of car obsessed transportation bureaucrats and engineers retire.
I like the idea of a subway, but will the projected number of riders outside of the Dufferin to Don Mills corridor really support it? I am not so sure.
2 more Questions.
With a subway at Eglinton and one a Bloor, would not the St Clair ROW be a bit of a waste?
Will the diamond lanes on Eglinton be removed when the lrt/subway opens?
Dear Mr. Munro: With due respect, at least some misinformation is coming from the TransitCity advocates — starting at the top:
“Mayor David Miller wants Toronto to be a city that moves by transit. That’s why his Transit City plan includes a comprehensive network of dedicated rapid-transit routes that will move people quickly, efficiently and affordably through all parts of the city.” (Source: Miller 2006 Campaign press Release)
Note the prominence of the terms “rapid-transit” and “quickly”. Also, there’s the (in)famous “Where no streetcar has gone before!” ad, which calls Transit City “rapid transit”.
But as commenters have noted on your own site, the average speed of the Transit City cars will be about the same as the buses they replace. So Transit City will be “rapid” if you consider the bus to be near-rapid already.
That mockup illustration is reminding me: I miss the Philips sign overlooking the Eglinton/Leslie intersection. Maybe even more than I miss the Inn On The Park…
There should have been a subway on Eglinton 25 years ago. Wait, actually there were plans to have one west of the Allen, but Mike Harris screwed that all up.
If there’s a human being on the planet today who can prove than an LRT would make more sense than a subway on Eglinton, I will give them $290,000 and kiss their butt on a YouTube video.
This is a big city people, a “World class city” as the propagandists like to believe. START ACTING LIKE ONE.
I dont want to be world class, I just want to be good enough for us.
What many advocates of the Eglinton Subway Line fail to realize is that subways need plenty of high-density development (commercial or residential) to be self-sustaining. Otherwise, they would be a money-pit for the transit authority that owns and operates them, and YES, utimately the taxpayers!
I have surveyed Eglinton Avenue personally, and found that although there is plenty of high-density development east of Yonge Street, west of Yonge, the development primarily consists of low-density commercial and some residential–certainly not enough to sustain a subway; and according to the TTC’s own EA report on this subject, this is not likely to change anytime soon.
Had Eglinton Avenue been situated close to Highway 401, as Dixon Road and Lawrence Avenue are, there would have been a strategic advantage to putting a subway here, as 401 commuters could then make-up for the lack of development. However, in-reality, Eglinton is quite a distance from the 401, so it would not likely benefit very much from 401 commuters stuck in traffic. The term “white elephant” springs to mind in the discussion of a subway along Eglinton. It would have way too much capacity for Eglinton!
I for one, am glad that Mr. Harris cancelled this line, although I am by no means a Conservative voter; it would have been an ENORMOUS waste of money! Instead, let’s put subways where they are REALLY needed, such as an express route below the current Yonge Subway from Union to Highway 7! With the exception of the Highway 7 terminus, express trains along this route would stop at interchanges only, such as Union, possibly Queen (i.e., if this line is ever built), Bloor, Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.
Well, John C! Looks like you owe me $290,000, and a butt-kiss on YouTube! 😀
A better way to design street LRTs, if they can’t be buried altogether, would be to have the stops situated directly below major intersections. In other words, have the trains run in their exclusive rights-of-way on the surface until just-before they reach their stop; here they would dip below the intersection, and then emerge from it on the other side. This would certainly be much-better than priority signaling. At least riders wouldn’t have to wait outside in the bitter cold, or risk being run-over by motorists who fail to stop. And it would still be much cheaper than burying them completely.
Interesting how some posters cite the “flaws” of the Spadina Line. I used to ride the Spadina Bus (77B on the TTC) in the late 80’s and early 90’s. It could take up to 90 minutes to traverse the distance from the lake shore to Bloor street during the day.
The supposedly flawed streetcar service takes less than 20 minutes for the same distance.
SUBWAY FOR SURE!
Well the intitial results are in, which project a operation speed of 22km/hr! HEHE yeah right, im taking my bike, or going to start driving. Ladies and gentlemen we have a 31km long route that operates at 22km/hr, who in the right mind is going to start taking transit at this speed. This is only a marginal imporvement over the bus. The Bloor subway operates at 30km/hr have you taken it from Kippling to St. George?, it takes a while.
It seems to me the only thing being considered by the above users is capacity and cost. What about speed, I need to get to work, I dont have time to sit in this vehicle and site see. I think what we have to reconsider is how the TTC builds subways and what we the public expect. Currently the TTC goes to the government and says I want a few billion dollars to build a subway. This is irresponsible, imature, and unfair to other tax payers who dont take the subway and worse of all nothing gets done. What the TTC should be doing is identify corridors for intensification development potential, layout a subway plan, and ask for $250 million a year to grow one or 2 stations a year. This gives the community time to prepare for a subway and adjust to the reality of having a high capacity, high speed transit system.
What message are we sending developers if we have a high speed transit system that grows 1-2 stations a year. The subway is coming lets plan to build something because in 5 years the subway will be here. This makes it affordable for the Goverment and allows the community to prepare for this life altering infrastructure, as well make plans for redevelopment. Yes a subway is life altering for the individual and the commitity, its a awesome form of rapid transit. Its a high quality of life!
Lets look at the case of the Sheppard STUBWAY to no where. It was built at once in the middle of no where. 8 years after its opening its ridership continues to increase and that area is being transformed into high quality, high density housing. If we continued to build the subway at my proposed pace we’d be at about Victoria Park Road by now working our way to STC in the next 5-10 years. What would developers in this corridor between Victoria Park and STC be thinking knowing its growing 1 station a year. That subway is transforming that area of the city. Do you think this transformation would happen with a 22km/hr streetcar that waits at streetlights? Who wants to live like that?
Freeways encourage urban sprawl but arterial roads have limited speed and capacity, who wants to drive 20km to work without a 100km/hr road?. Subways encourage high density housing because people can depend on the subway to get them there fast. Do you think people want to live on a line that goes 22km/hr and wait outsite in bad weather?
Jane Jacobs said it takes 20 years to develope communities. Why the hell do we expect to built a subway overnight at a enourmous cost and expect the ridership to just be there? People its a lifestyle it changes slowly not overnight!!!!!!
Its not a question of how fast we build it but WHAT ARE WE BUILDING?
The above comments are SAD, “im glad harris canelled the subway?” DUMBASS!!!!!
As a young university student thats been to London, Berlin and other places, it frustrates the hell out of me to watch Toronto do this to itself. Torontonians deserve better. I can get a job anywhere in the world, and if Toronto cant offer me a quality of life I want I’ll leave. Its part of economic development. What are others in my position thinking, screw tornoto im leaving. Look at what our competing cities are buildign.
How many others are frustrated with Toronto’s transportation woes? What is Toronto missing out on? Rapid transit is a quuality of life issue and all of you are missing that point.
To make the LRT go 30km/hr it means not giving signal priority to LRT vehcles but Exculsive right of way such as a train. The Los Angeles Metro, Dallas Dart, and Calgary Ctrain gives exclusive right of way. Toronto is not willing to do this because the car continues to rule here, yet at the same time we are busy trying to tear down the Gardiner.
If the LRT is going to go fast on Eglinton, is Toronto willing to give it exlusive right of way at intersections to achieve 30km/hr? If they are the Eglinton route will transform into a vibrant area dependent on rapid transit, certainly the capacity of the lrt will be challenged in the future. If the car is still the ruler, a 22km/hr lrt is bullshit, I would think citizens of Toronto will be outraged when when ride 2.2 billion dollar track to find its marginally faster then a bus.
Toronto needs to get a life and become agressive with Rapid Transit if it wants to change its development, and compete with the car thus providing its citizens a high quality of life.
Cheers
Joe D.,
I agree with you totally that we need more subways, not just in Toronto, but across the region; however, they should only be built where they are REALLY NEEDED. Eglinton Avenue is definitely NOT a corridor where a subway is needed at the present time. Although it would be nice to have one there, it just would not make sense west of Yonge St.
Face it, Joe; resources are limited. We simply cannot afford to build a subway where every Tom, Dick, Harry, or JOE wants one! Although a subway across Eglinton may someday make sense, right now it does NOT. There are many other places across the GTHA where building one would make much more sense, such as into the 905 region, where the traffic largely originates. Joe, think about this: The Region of Peel alone, which includes the Cities of Mississauga and Brampton now have a population that is GREATER than that of the former Metro Toronto region when its first subway opened in 1954. Toronto is no longer the only kid on the block, contrary to what many Torontonians may believe.
Joe, lets talk about a GTHA-wide Super-Metro before discussing subways in underpopulated areas such as the Eglinton West corridor. In the meantime, Joe, please realize that your name-calling is uncalled for, and will certainly do NOTHING to address the problem at hand; had you read my comments completely and put some strategic thinking into play, you likely would not have felt the need to resort to this!
Whether it is a LRT or Subway the system should save the time and money if LRT speed like subway and it never stop at signals like bus then its LRT is good