Both Howard Moscoe and Chief General Manager Gary Webster say the new low-floor buses have been a failure due to their poor seating in the rear of the vehicle. Read about it in the Toronto Sun.
In its bid to squeeze as many seats as it could into the Orion 7 buses that lose some seating because of the low-floor, the TTC shoe-horned seats into the raised back of the bus.
“They’re all jammed together so you can never get a comfortable seat unless your legs are two inches long,” TTC chairman Howard Moscoe said.
“It’s been a disaster,” he said. “We ordered 800 buses without fully knowing what the design would be.”
Photo from Transit Toronto
19 comments
You’d think that after many complaints they could have avoided this. Speaking on behalf of big and tall people like myself, I usually don’t tend to sit in the front because it makes life easier for the elderly, so I sit at the back or I stand. However when it comes to the low floor buses, it’s every person for themselves! This goes to show you that even though they run the TTC they never even step onto the vehicle to see what it’s like for us commuters.
ballsy to point this out and partially take blame for it before an election. I’m not sure if I could pat them on the back for being so forth right, or wonder how stupid they are.
You know, when people say that the TTC may be clueless in some respects tbut that they still know how to run a transit system, I have to ask them what they’re smoking.
Hehe, I love sitting on the “princess seat” as my friends call ’em (the seat that is at the very back, at the end of the aisle, and in the middle) as you get so much leg space and since I’m short I can’t reach the floor (hence the title princess seat). But yes, getting comfortable at the back seats are tough, I usually move me knees to the chest, and sit in the weirdest of positions just to feel comfortable.
As a student, and a transit enthusiast (sp?), I do not enjoy taking the 43 Kennedy Bus from Mc.Nicoll to the Station. Hard enough to grab a seat, but to deal with an ‘uncomfortable no space for the legs’ seat at the back is worse.
During crush loads, it’s a bitch to get to the back exit door. You MUST push and ‘every man for themselves’ applies. A bus driver also told me that the older buses (like the ones running on Sheppard, and Nugget) run longer on the day than the new buses.
You can’t beat the comfortability of an old Fishbowl, with the comfy brown seats where you can just sprawl out and relax all the way.
As a roughly 6-foot someone who rides low-floors twice every day on Finch, I have to say that while the squishy seats at the back aren’t comfortable, they’re not that horiffic either.
Worse, I think, is that if anyone stands on the raised rear portion of the bus, the entire aisle is blocked and no one from the back can slip past to get off the bus. As a result, when a bus is full, the drivers feel that people haven’t moved back far enough, and shouting matches often ensue.
It’s not great, but it’s probably washes out the gains from greater accessibility for the elderly, strollers, etc.
Normally I don’t overuse punctuation like this, but this statement is absolutely ridiculous:
“We ordered 800 buses without fully knowing what the design would be.”
Who buys EIGHT HUNDRED oversized vehicles without verifying their specs first?!?! What kind of idiots are running the TTC?!?!!?!
Fascinating, however, that they don’t mention the low-floor buses that *don’t* jam passengers in the back. I’ve taken them in the northwest part of town; they’re low floor, but have a fairly normal section of rear seats. Instead of being in the centre, the second exit is located at the far back.
I’ve contacted the TTC about them, asking why they didn’t use this design over the “humpback” bus, but no response thus far.
It took them three years since these terrible buses started showing up to realize that there were problems like this? And they’re on order well into 2007.
Of course, if you try to sit in the back, and have to get out (the new buses crowd much quicker), that’s a tough task in it self. It’s no wonder than even with 25 people standing on a bus, that you will often find empty seats in the back.
I know Torotonians don’t like perimetre seating, but that is what is should be in the back of those Orion 7 buses,just like in the older buses. You’d think once they started putting in seats facing forward they would have thought, “this might be easier to place them with the seats to the back fo the windows.”
perimeter seating rocks!
I can’t believe they are finally admitting the awful truth!
Nothing gets me in a more foul mood than having to commute in those buses. First, you have the idiots who block the back exit door rather than take a seat. And then there’s the folks in the back who opt to take an aisle seat rather than the empty window seat right next to them. Sure, they may be getting off sooner than rest of the people on the bus, but is it really that difficult to politely say “excuse me” to the person in the aisle seat when you need to get off? Worse still are the lazy people in the aisle seats who can’t even get their asses out of their seats to let you get into a window seat. They just lazily shift around to let you by.
Searching through Ed Drass’ Website, I’m surprised he’s never addressed the Orion 7 issues or Orion 7 etiquette. I probably should write to him.
Torontonians don’t like perimeter seating on subways but on busses it’s what we’ve had forever.
Actually I know quite a bit of people who wouldn’t mind perimeter seating on subways, it makes life a tad bit easier when moving from one end of the car to the other. I say thing cause you get those inconsiderate people who sit facing the aisle rather then sit according to the seat, parrallel to the aisle. They make moving a whole lot harder especially on a well crowded train.
On buses, it’s still a mix of forward-facing seats and perimeter seats.
On buses though, there was always a mix of perimeter and forward-facing seats, it just differed how the seats are placed. In New Looks, it was the back where the seats all faced inside, and people would stand at the back, and there would be room to move. Except for the front of the Orion VII, where the swing-up seats are for wheelchairs, all seats face forward. And of course, the stairs, plus the cramped rear area discourage moving back, despite the driver thinking that riders can move back there, and that’s where the shouting matches start.
Of course, the TTC’s solution was to have automated announcements to plead with passengers to move back. You’d think that a review of the bus design would be in order, but I wonder how often the minds who design and order buses actually ride them in revenue service.
The plea to passengers makes sense only on streetcars … I have never seen more inconsiderate adults than on an extended Toronto streetcar, jamming up the front car and centre section, while the second car often has not just empty space, but empty *seats.*
Bus passengers generally are more sensible.
I guess I’m alone in liking the layout of our new buses over the older perimeter style designs. The momentum from when the driver “floors it” or “jams on the break” usually hurtles you side-to-side with perimeter seating and you really get an ab workout.
Why do people keep rooting for the Fishbowls? The bothersome rattle of the windows and the intense V6 vibration at the back are downright uncomfortable.
I’m glad someone besides me hates these things, whenever I gripe about them to my friends their eyes glaze over :). I agree that they’d be vastly improved by replacing a couple of the back rows of seats with perimeter seats… in fact I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a few older low-floor buses like this kicking around Toronto (I believe they were Flyers, not Orions). But I still like them better than the flat-all-the-way-back ones (Orion 6?). The entire back 1/3 of those stupid things is taken up with big gray boxes, with nowhere to sit *or* stand. ugh.
I think you mean New Flyer D40LF, they can be seen on routes like kipling (& south), airport rocket, junction, lambton, dupont and east mall, just to name a few. If we’d continue that on Orion VII’s, there wouldn’t be a problem (or as much of a problem).
I wrote to TTC awhile back, saying they should purchase more D40LF’s becuase and complement the 51 units already in service at Queensway.
It’s kinda bland to see Orion VII’s everywhere now. And it’s kinda bland to see New Flyer buses in peel region, cuz it’s all they buy now. (expect the mississauga 06## version, they’re weird, just a face-lift) lol. Anywho…
“Princess seats” Good one, lol. I call them McD’s Booster Seats. You find usually ignorant people wanting to sit on them, when there’s a few people on the bus. When it’s crowded, that’s different, it’s okay by me. Some even prop-up their feet on the two pairs in front of him/her. So you can’t really go by and sit on the corner back seats. Same with the 7900’s and the hybrid 1000’s, although they don’t have booster seats.
I have to fully get rough now, HAUL YOUR ASS OVER, or i will shove your legs over to enter/exit when you’re on that booster seat.
And the kids! Oh and the kids! Mother Fucker! When you are looking into a quiet, relaxed ride home, (yes… there IS A SUCH THING, peoplez.) The two kids with their single mother, will run away from her, and fight for that seat. Then somehow they manage to negotiate at ages 10 and 6, to see who’s turn it is to sit there. Then there’s ignorant teens who want to sit there. Kill the booster/princess seats. You can keep them only if the seating arrangement is simular to a New Flyer low-floor bus.
As for Orion 6’s, I hated them, strong word… HATED them. But I got used to them. They were better off used on quiet, low-use routes, like 78, 115, 98 & 120 and ex-163. They’re okay in pickering & Ajax, But NOT ON DUFFERIN STREET! They should be used as replacement Community Buses or something.
***pruchase more D4OLF’s becuase they are more roomy, allow more standee’s… something they’ve been looking into all the time. And it will complement the 51 units there already at Queensway.