POLL: Should the province take control of the TTC?

28 comments

1. Everyone knows that the truth the province cannot speak is that they are the useless and hindering of the three levels of government. Give it to the province? Like hell.

2. I voted “yes” in part because the assumption would be (a) that the province would also then take over the responsibilities of the other regional transit systems (YRT etc) in order to coordinate interconnection between the municipalities and (b) because if they “take over” that should also mean “pay for”.

3. I’m pretty sure Chicago, NY and London have their transit run at a higher-than-municipal level. For big cities with lots of suburbs it just makes sense to have one big coordinated transit plan rather than one for the city and several other smaller ones for each suburb.

4. I know this is just a poll, but I don’t think it is clear enough what ‘take over’ means. There are many possible combinations of what might constitute ‘take over’. For example, take over captial and operating costs of regionally significant routes (which has been implied), take over TTC entirely, etc.

5. The great challenge of transit in Toronto is that there is a dichotomy between regional long-distance transit, and local short-distance transit. A trip from the Eaton Centre to the exhibition is just as important to the passenger one moment as a trip from Square One to the Scarborough Town Centre the next, but the requirements (and costs) of providing one trip or the other are very different. My concern is that, providing a single agency to look after both trips will end up favouring one (usually the longer one) at the expense of the other.

   We already have a situation where trips across Toronto cost as much as trips within Toronto, and our fare has increased to the point where people make fewer short distance trips these days. This has increased the cost of running the TTC as it has helped increase fares. $3 no longer covers the cost of a trip from Humber College to Union, and people blanche at the cost when the trip is from Bloor-Yonge to Harbourfront.

   If we have a single agency running transit in the GTA, we raise the spectre of a single fare for trips from Oakville to Pickering as from Etobicoke and Scarborough. That way lies madness. At a minimum, we need to look at a smart card fare-by-distance scheme. Alternately, we keep the two types of trips broken apart: a regional agency like GO focused on providing the express service throughout the region, and local agencies focused on trips within their communities, and getting people from the regional nodes to their homes.

   This is a more complicated arrangement, but it strikes me as the one which will best serve most of the people.

6. I’d only suggest a Translink style arrangement. There are compromise options.

   State/provincially controlled local transit authorities are more common in the US. Examples include:
   – NJ Transit, the ultimate example, where the State operates all transit, from Commuter Rail to LRT to city buses. The only exceptions are PATH and PATCO, both being interstate metro systems.
   – Mass Transit Administration of Maryland – controls the local transit system for that state’s largest city, Baltimore, as well as commuter trains and buses, but does not control local buses in smaller centres. It is criticised for arbitary service changes (Baltimore Bus Initative) with no local input or direction.

   Then there are the quasi-state level agencies, such as the MTA in New York (which operates most of New York City’s subways, buses, commuter rail, and many toll bridges and tunnels), and the RTA in Chicago, which merely sets funding and regional planning.

   Translink in BC is a provincial agency like GTTA or GO, but has since separated from BC Transit, which operates all local service outside of Metro Vancouver. Translink isn’t a bad model to follow, and I like the idea of local control over the TTC operations, though regional fare structures and planning is important (make a trip more seamless, except it might make service complaints and suggestions more complicated.

7. I would absolutely like to see more coordination between the various transit systems in the GTA, but I see a lot of potential problems and no potential upside with the province actually taking over the TTC. (I don’t think Metrolinx actually cares whether the Queen streetcar runs normally, short-turns, or falls into the lake.)

8. If the province had had control of the TTC during the Harris regime it would not simply have been gutted. It would be gone. For the benefit of his Minister of (private) Transportation “any Paladini is not a pal of public transit”.

9. because if they “take over” that should also mean “pay for”.

   Except that this means the province can “pay for” as much, or as little, as it wants. In a utopian world, with a progressive provincial government intent on making mass transit a priorty, it *might* not be terrible.

   But we don’t live in a utopian world with progressive provincial governments (hell, even the nominally progressive NDP gov’t we had was bad for TTC funding). Instead, we live in a world where – as has been pointed out – Mike Harris governments come around every so often; one of those would be catastrophic to mass transit in Toronto. The rest of the time, we have a government that seems more interested in funding projects that are high profile, good PR and/or have economic “benefits” unconnected to the transit itself.

   If Toronto wants a transit system dedicated to transit concerns specific to Toronto, then Toronto needs to control the TTC.

10. I think that it would be helpful for the TTC to be run by the province.

    There would be significant cost savings potential: the politicians running it would be less in-hock to labour than the current group running it (NDP/Giambrone) are.

11. I posted on this multiple times during the great Metrolinx Name Debate, but pretty much every other transit agency on the continent is regional – just study the acronyms. Obviously there are good reasons for this – resistance is futile, and probably about as smart as sticking one’s head in the sand.

    Yes, there will always be suburban-urban tension, which is why larger agencies like New York’s MTA or Chicago’s RTA have separate and independent divisions for city subways, commuter rail, suburban buses, etc.

    Bottom line – the economy, population and functions of “the city” are now regional, so if transit is to serve the city properly, and be funded properly, it must too be regional or risk being ignored. Sure, there might be the odd screwup in say, short-turning the Queen car because of an interagency foulup caused by a suburban boardmember not caring, but for the love of god it’s a lot better for a 905er to not care and still fund transit than to not care and not fund it at all because it’s not his problem.

12. I have friends and relatives that work for the Toronto District School Board and they all say it is too large to be effecively run. I think this can experience can be applied to the TTC as well. If it gets too large it won’t serve us transit users as well as it could. A smaller system is better able to respond and change according to the populations needs.

13. the choice isn’t between the city and the province when it comes to running the TTC. there are other options! for example, why can’t it be a crown corporation with independent management, including marketing people as well as engineers? among other benefits, this would remove politics from much of the decision-making and make non-governmental financing easier.

14. We should absolutely upload the TTC to the Province.

    The TTC used to be a model of cleanliness and efficiency. That was 20 years ago, and since then, it has turned into a decaying dinosaur that is over burdened and falling apart.

    The system is buckling under increasing urban population growth with little or no new capacity to speak of. While the City has built a $950+ million subway to nowhere (i.e. The Sheppard Line), it neglected to run any rail transit to Scarborough where people actually need it, and getting outside of Toronto proper is an absolute mess.

    I say give it to the Province and let’s get a coordinated strategy developed that will efficiently move people around the ENTIRE GTA.

    Regards,

    Andrew “TTC=Take The Car” Wells

15. We don’t need a provincially run transit system, we need better border transitions. For example there are few routes that cross municipal borders that down end at subway lines.

    Maybe a better fare structure, two possible systems:

    1) Charge by distance, for example you have a fare card, you put your card in, when you get on, and when you get off a vehicle, it then deducts the value of the distance traveled, based on so many ¢/km. Each municipal system would set it’s own rate, and how your charged for part km. For example the TTC might charge 10¢/km and round up the the next full km. Mississauga might charge 8¢/km and round down, while Brampto

    2) Charge by time, you can get a one hour trip for $1, 2 hours for $1.50, etc. This would again allow short trips to be cheaper, and would allow for round trips within the time period.

16. Am not sure that we need the province running or taking over the TTC but I do think we need a funding model (and maybe governance structure) that encourages a more cohesive “region-wide” approach to transit.

    The improvements the TTC is making are great but when it comes right down to it, they are probably going to do very little in terms of getting rid of the congestion from all the vehicles that come into the city from the municipalities outside Toronto (and vice versa). Toronto’s traffic patterns and congestion are to a great extent “driven” by regional factors — so that transit planning focused solely within Toronto’s boundaries has only limited potential to make things better. The greatest gains will come when the TTC and all its counterparts are encouraged to think beyond their respective borders. As things now stand, they don’t — nor should they given their current mandate. (Witness all the carping from Toronto politicians about funding the subway to York U — which will be a huge transit boon to York Region, and perhaps less directly, also to Toronto.) But until their mandates start reflecting the fact that we need solutions and approaches that work at a regional level, we’re not likely to see any great reduction in the number of vehicles on our roads.

17. With respect to Tom’s comments, London’s transport is controlled at municipal level (Transport for London http://www.tfl.gov.uk).

    It’s not who runs the transport system that’s the problem, it’s how they run it. Check out TfL’s annual report and statement of accounts (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/investorrelations/1458.aspx) to see all their different income streams, including borrowing, congestion charging and, dare I say it, public-private partnerships.

    The governments involved should stop taking their cues from the States and start looking at how European cities operate their public transport systems. Come on Toronto, we’re fifty years behind!

18. Regardless of whether it works in other cities, my faith in Metrolinx would have to increase a thousandfold before I say yes!

19. Andrew Wells, you seem to blame the city and the city alone for the construction of the Sheppard subway and the lack of rapid transit options in Scarborough. You’re forgetting that the Sheppard subway was approved by the provincial government as part of their _own_ plan, which differed significantly from Toronto’s original Network 2011 proposal.

    Likewise, the Scarborough RT problem is the province’s fault, full stop. Metropolitan Toronto and the TTC had an excellent plan to create a network of streetcar routes on reserved right-of-way that would funnel onto the SRT right-of-way for a connection to the subway, but the province killed the proposal out of a desire to build a high-tech (read “untested white elephant”) public transit manufacturing industry.

    So, if you’re expecting provincial management to be automatically better than municipal management, you’re in for a disappointment. The only thing that’s going to fix the TTC is political will. And I think that’s more likely to be successful if the managers are at the municipal level rather than the provincial level.

20. “I have friends and relatives that work for the Toronto District School Board and they all say it is too large to be effecively run. I think this can experience can be applied to the TTC as well. If it gets too large it won’t serve us transit users as well as it could. A smaller system is better able to respond and change according to the populations needs.” — George Smith

    I disagree. A school board is fundamentally a different thing than a transit agency.

    When you’re in the business of moving people, the people you are moving aren’t generally interested in the arbitrary borundaries you chose for your system. As the Greater Toronto Area grows larger, the boundries continue to blur (the former boundaries between the separate municipalities of Metropolitan Toronto are long vanished).

    The borders of Mississauga and York Region that touch Toronto are already rapidly disappearing. As this process continues, trips that cross this border will increase and there is no reason whatsoever a passenger should be expected to change vehicles and pay a new fare to make their journey.

21. I would argue that it has been the province that has screwed up the TTC first place.

    If the province has complete control they will gut it as it suits their needs, regardless of which party is in power. The TTC is needed every day and cannot be held hostage to vote getting or fundraising whims (any more than it already is).

    There are many good suggestions here that could be put in place without having to give up control.

22. But I do suggest that the http://www.tfl.gov.uk web designers take over the TTC website.

23. If the TTC could get the same subsidy as the surrounding transit companies get, go for it. However, if the surrounding transit companies get the same subsidy as the TTC is getting, they would object.

24. The Star’s editorial today says, “TTC uploading worth a long look”. http://www.thestar.com/article/304084

    The editorialist(s) proposes a detailed study into having the “province take over the TTC.”

    According to news coverage a majority of the current Metrolinx board would appear to oppose putting that agency “in charge” of local transit such as the TTC.
    Metrolinx does not yet have control over GO Transit. (In fact the GO board has been resisting that move…)

    Such a study would in effect be an exploration into the future mandate of Metrolinx. The agency is evolving rapidly and I’m not even entirely clear about its current scope.

    It’s required to come up with a regional transportation plan, (but is this just transit and arterial roads? where do highways fit in?) and is also working on EA procedures and other responsibilities. They could hypothetically get into smoothing cross-border issues (buon giorno Steeles Avenue!) or address transit duplication — but have not gone there yet.
    There is also something about a trip planner (I recently got the impression from Giambrone that the region-wide Metrolinx version is moving slowly). Without checking the GTTA site, I also recall some vague reference to becoming an appeal body if your complaint to a local transit agency is not dealt with properly. I like that one, but do they have the work force or chops to do it any time soon?

    So if the province pushes for a fact-finding report and Metrolinx refuses, then what happens? How many times has anyone here been to a provincial consultation meeting? I won’t pretend the TTC is much better at these but at least I know how to get to the monthly commission meeting.

    There are so many pros and cons to get into, but one part of the debate on the interweb seems to focus on ‘bigger is better’ or, at least, amalgamation can’t be worse than the TTC is now. I have a deep concern abut complacency and semi-paralysis inside this huge organization but the commission didn’t become the third-busiest transit system in North America by fluke.

    Could a regional system practically address the operations and customer-service deficiencies of the existing systems? Or does this appeal to a prevailing attitude of over-complaining and wishful thinking?

    Would a regional agency necessarily have better financing? Hell, the governor of New York State has huge influence over the NYC rail/subway/bus system, and regardless of the party in power in Albany, the MTA continues to have major financial problems — even with higher density and a comparatively more generous federal government.

    As for the TTC, please check that bathwater again…

    (Uhh, I think I just wrote Thursday’s column…)

25. I don’t understand why Metrolinx has to be a proxy for the Province. Why can’t Metrolinx be it’s own authority. The Province doesn’t care about whether the city is livable, only whether transit service is efficient (read: at crippling capacity) and that the economy isn’t suffering due to slow transit.

    Metrolinx should be a regional, non-provincial authority.

26. All it will take is another Harris government, and if the province has control of the TTC, you all know what will happen.

    An utterly stupid idea, and anyone that wants decent transit service should fight it. Dalton won’t be in power forever.

27. @ KB

    What is stopping someone like Mike Harris from lying his way into the mayor’s chair?

    I’m not defending Mike Harris, but as I recall, he never said “if elected, I will cut transit funding.”

    Ultimately you have to trust that a politician will do what he says he’s going to do, and there are no guarantees that he/any one of them are telling the truth. To worry about “another Harris government” ignores what could happen at any level of government at any time.

28. WHILE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LOOKING FOR JOBS AND HAD NO MONEY, STRIKE IS NOT FAIR, THIS IS A SENSITIVE SERVICE TO PUBLIC AND TTC WORKER KNOW AND TAKE ADVANTAGE.

    SOLUTION: FIRE ALL TTC WORKERS WHO DON’T WORK AND HIRE NEW OPERATORS ON A CONTRACT BASIS WHICH DOES NOT LET THEM TO STRIKE IN FUTURE.

    THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING