As Transit City pushes forward — the Finch LRT was approved yesterday at city council — with the goal of providing reliable public transport to the forgotten reaches of the inner suburbs, it will be a challenge to ensure that areas of existing coverage aren’t forgotten in the process. The residents of the southwestern communities of Mimico, New Toronto and Long Branch have become a vocal and organized group, claiming they have already been forgotten. Far from just complaining however, residents in the area have a plan for action, and they’re pitching it aggressively.
The Lakeshore Planning Council is a citizen’s group dedicated to reviewing and advocating planning issues in South Etobicoke. Of late, the group has turned its attention to what has become a foremost issue in the community: service, or lack thereof, on the 501 streetcar. The planning council notes that service along Transit City bus routes such as Wellesley, receive much more frequent service despite lower ridership. The communities along the western waterfront were some of Toronto’s original ‘streetcar suburbs’ and as such, have streetcar service built into their very existence for both local trips and commutes into the city.
Problems started in 1995 when the TTC retired the old 507 route that used to serve between Long Branch and the Humber Loop in favour of a single extension of the 501. Since then, residents in the area have watched service slip badly.
Blamed for the problems are the usual suspects: bunching of streetcars on congested downtown streets, and frequent short-turns that leave passengers stranded. An extra fare, express bus for the area has proven equally unreliable and has failed to attract riders. This fall’s 501 route split, similarly failed to fix the problems on the Long Branch run.
To fix the problem once and for all, the planning council is proposing the TTC reinstate the 507 streetcar (check out the facebook group), this time rerouting it from Long Branch all the way to Dundas West station via Roncesvalles. The group argues this will improve service not only along Lake Shore, but also through Roncesvalles to compliment the streetscape improvements there. Furthermore, it will give riders a connection to the subway as well as extensive connections to other streetcars going further east while avoiding highly congested stretches of Queen St.
A rendering of the proposed 507 route
At issue here is also the future of Transit City’s planned Waterfront West LRT (WWLRT). The proposed route would run through the area, although it is still in the very early stages of planning. According to Mike Olivier of the Lakeshore Planning Council, the proposal of the WWLRT was met with skepticism in the community. Driving this attitude is pessimism regarding the TTC’s ability to properly manage service along the line, in light of how poorly things are done now. Olivier says that residents blame much of the problems with the Long Branch service on the way the TTC currently manages the route and worry that Transit City’s longer vehicles will only enhance problems with local service. While the TTC has yet to comment on the proposal, local councillor Mark Grimes supports the group’s plan.
The TTC risks losing the faith of residents along the waterfront and creating scepticism where it needs it least: among the riders who are already dedicated to taking transit. On the Etobicoke waterfront, locals have given the TTC an option to avoid this.
top photo by torontostreetcar, route rendering by Jordan Teichmann
This is a very logical route, and if I recall correctly, has been suggested by the guru himself, Steve Munro. The only potential issue I could see is capacity at Dundas W station. Can it handle three routes with only two tracks in the loading area? Other than that, it is a great idea.
I believe Dundas West could handle the 507. As it would effectively be assisting the 504 King car along Roncesvalles, it could use the 504’s loading area. It would also make it easier for late running 504 cars to be short turned at Sunnyside (i.e. they would not go up Roncesvalles at all.) Short turning some 504 cars at Sunnyside (the loop is located at the southwest corner of Roncesvalles carhouse) would keep the 504 more reliable downtown as well, yet providing a reasonable connection to Dundas West station.
The route rendering was actually by Jordan Teichmann. Mike Olivier
According to the July 15, 1954 Toronto Star, The lakeshore area was up in arms when the TTC took over all the surface operation across Metro and rejigged the fare zones causing the zone fares to skyrocket to get downtown and having to cross three zones to travel between Mimico and Port Credit. Reeve Marie Curtis reportedly said “We pay more money for less service” and predicted that fewer and fewer people would use the streetcars. The councillors of the area even urged residents to carpool and boycott the TTC and complained that under the new Metro system they were getting the “dirty end of the stick”. Looks like they’re still fighting to shake off the dirty end of the stick.
Reassuring the Grimey supports the idea.
Not only would this proposal vastly improve service on Lake Shore West, but by shortening the Queen Route, it will make all service on Queen more reliable. And it can be implemented for virtually no infrastructure cost, so no money wasted when the WWLRT is finally built.
The whole connecting to the subway is bullshit, you have so many connections to the subway already everything from the 110 to 80 going to different stations on the Bloor-Danforth line.
If you want to go to the subway take the kipling/islington/royal york/etc… buses up to Bloor Street.
There’s also the empty parking lot beside the Dundas West station where the streetcar/bus platforms could be theoretically be expanded for more room to handle more routes.
I fail to see how adding a further connection to the subway system is bullshit, but to each their own.
This seems like a great way to help this stranded community. I grew up in Long Branch and loathed the half hour waits between cars. Hopefully this will rectify this situation, but what I find more interesting is the connection between two separated west end communities. High Park and the waterfront parks effectively segregate the western reaches of Etobicoke from the western reaches of downtown Toronto. It would be nice to connect these neighbourhoods as their are many cultural connections that exist with the immigrant families that moved into these areas in the post war era.
One of the positive considerations hasn’t been mentioned: Not having to deal with the Humber Loop. This is a dismal and frequently dangerous area. If I’m continuing along Queen St. for whatever reason, I wouldn’t mind changing cars at Roncesvalles.
Regarding the subway connection at Dundas West Station, this is to give Lakeshore and Queensway streetcar riders other options than just the very erratic 501 Queen or the almost as problematic 504 King routes.
Namely, the 506 College and 505 Dundas cars, and the subway itself. Furthermore, given that alot of 504 King cars are short-turned before reaching Ronces, the 507 will provide additional much needed service on Roncesvalles.
Lakeshore & Queensway transit riders have been abandonned by the iffy 501 Queen car far too often. The TTC itself has basically given up on trying to improve the 501 Queen car.
The 80 Queensway goes from Sherway via Lake Shore and Parkside to Keele Station. If that makes sense, so does the 507 to Dundas West, I would think.
One option post-507 would be to split/terminate the 80 at Humber Loop (as 66 Prince Edward does) to meet the 501 and 507 which would then maximise the usage of the private right of way.
Yes, Humber Loop is depressing but maybe with a bit more activity there will be scope for TTC to suck in some retail or other development. Maybe some west side guerrilla gardening could brighten it up 🙂
I work at Bloor and Spadina and live at Lakeshore and Long Branch. Ever since the free commuter parking diappeared at Kipling, I have been driving to Bloor West (where I have found cheaper parking)and then take the subway downtown from there, as that is the fastest, most pleasant and most economical route (about 35-40 minutes)to my destination.
I like this proposal because traffic only really starts to get super congested into downtown as you approach Roncesvalles, and that is why the subway connection makes sense at that point.
Is there an estimated travel time on the 507 from Long Branch to Dundas West Station?
their website is ridiculous. they don’t want an lrt because streetcar service sucks? they want a streetcar, but they don’t want streetcar service (sporadic, bunchy)? AND they want a streetcar to the subway, eliminating the one single advantage of the lakeshore streetcar (one trip into downtown, no transfers)? what they really want is a bus, and they already have three. it IS bullshit.
Humber Loop used to have a snack store, but it died years ago. There’s a recent development to the west, but no direct connection or path to the streetcar loops. Humber Loop’s still desolate and an uncomfortable place to wait.
Yes this 507 routing was indeed created by Steve Munro. He spoke at the Lakeshore Planning Council’s Transportation Workshop last year and mentioned it. The more we discussed it the more the 507 to Dundas West Station routing made sense.
The 507 would maximise the usage of the private right of way along Queensway, currently occasionally used by the 501 QUeen streetcars, when they get that far.
The proposed LRT service won’t be there until 2029 according to current budget projections. People should not have to wait until then for good service.
Indeed, the TTC has a proposal for a “Transit City Bus Network” with many routes operating guaranteed 10 minute or better service. Lake Shore is not part of this network because, wait for it, it’s not a bus route. Never mind that even in its now-degraded state, there are more riders on Lake Shore than on the Wellesley Bus which, magically, is part of the 10 minute network despite being in walking distance of the subway.
The 507 to Dundas West would not eliminate the peak period 508s going downtown. However, over HALF of the demand on Lake Shore is local to that street, people trying to get back and forth between southern Etobicoke locations, not to downtown. The line was like this back when it was a Humber to Long Branch service.
Bringing the line into Dundas West provides an overlap with the Queen car so that even when short turned, there will be a connection to service west of Roncesvalles. As others have noted, it also provides additional service supplementing the 504 which can be a scarce creature at certain times beyond Ronces Carhouse.
To answer Catherine’s question:
The running time from Long Branch Loop to Ronces is about 30 minutes, and about 8 up to Dundas West from there. That makes it 40 or less from the outer end of the 507 to Dundas West Station. Locations further in would scale accordingly.
Another advantage of this change is that cars wouldn’t sit at Humber waiting to fit in with the Humber service, but would just drive straight through, inbound at least.
A restored 507 would be more beneficial then the 501 car that people may not see for a long time. Most people who use the streetcar along the Lake Shore use it for local service – something that even the TTC admits. The WWLRT and its ROW is another issue.
Also, the 508 is rush hour only, but popular. If service along the 508 is increased, then the “one ride downtown” would also exist.
As for the “transfer” issue – it is better to transfer at Dundas West and get downtown in a reasonable amount of time or take the very slow 501 car. Which is better, a faster trip with a transfer or no transfer but a longer trip? Then again, people are not always going downtown, so trasnit has to change to accomodate changes to travel patterns.
What we need is for the TTC to look at more obvious, cheaper, operational fixes that can be applied right now rather than putting all their resources into expensive, infrastructural mega-projects to be implemented sometime in the distant future. This is what happens when engineers and politicians run things! Reinstating the 507 is a brilliant idea.
The TTC was planning on building Park Lawn loop to replace Humber loop, to give all the new condos better service. It was supposed to be built last year, but the new capital budget it is delayed until 2022.
“Thereâ€™s a recent development to the west [of Humber Loop], but no direct connection or path to the streetcar loops.”
There is a sidewalk from Humber Loop right to the grocery store. I take it a couple of times a week.
It’s true that route management is a big issue with the reliability of the Queen car.
The first strike against the “Bring back the 507” proposal is right there — service will *not* magically improve because Lake Shore has been decoupled from Queen. Yes, issues downtown reach out to Lake Shore. But look at St. Clair: a short route on exclusive ROW but operation has been generally seen as ghastly.
For those that say “Lake Shore will be different”, the TTC put a number of spare streetcars running Long Branch to Humber in summer 2008 — essentially a 507 route. The service was unmanaged, and less useful than through Queen service. The pseudo-507 cars spent their time sitting in a bunch in either loop, or parked in front of the Tim Hortons at 28th with the four-ways going.
*IF* the TTC ever fixes route management, they will apply it to the Queen car, because of all the complaints and “Fix the Queen Car” fora already held. So even though the new 507 may receive good management, so will the Queen car. You don’t need separate 507 any more.
Second strike against the 507 proposal is that it can’t be implemented for years, given that Roncesvalles is totally torn up for a rebuild (and who knows how long that will take), while also the TTC is short of operable streetcars as it stands. Lake Shore definitely warrants more frequent service, but there aren’t the streetcars to manage this. (Another Steve Munro scheme, putting ALRVs on King and CLRVs on Queen, would maybe help more.)
Third strike against the 507 proposal is that, decoupled from the regal Queen route, the chances of “temporary” bussification increase, and South Etobicoke may lose streetcar service entirely.
Fourth strike is that 508 service downtown is no better than 501 service, and can be worse. I don’t see a downtown-via-King routing as particularly superior to downtown-via-Queen, particularly on running time. While some of the tieups on King can be conceptually solved (congestion due to taxis in the financial core, and 10-15 minutes queuing westbound to cross/turn at Roncesvalles) so can the tieups at Queen (viz., Dufferin jog is being fixed, while Lansdowne/Jameson traffic lights could be revised).
Since September, I’ve travelled four times a week between Long Branch and Seneca College at Finch/404. My local stop at Brown’s line means I’ve tried Shorncliffe and Islington South to the Bloor subway, or Queen or Lake Shore to the Yonge subway. The Queen car is close enough in speed to be competitive with the buses. My experiences with Lake Shore 508 service has been that it’s slower and less reliable than Queen.
Fifth strike is that the proposed new 507’s service to Dundas West is may be useful for people living east of Mimico Creek, but really not otherwise — transfer to the Kipling South bus, it’s way faster. And a frankly, a one-seat-ride downtown (and beyond) along Queen strikes me considerably superior to a one-seat-ride to transfer to the Carlton car at Howard Park.
1st Strike – A key part of the Lakeshore Planning Council letter to the TTC was to demand much better, more effective streetcar line management. As you mention, the TTC has even completely mismanaged the new traffic-free St Clair LRT.
The TTC will do nothing to improve streetcar service reliability & management unless public & political pressure forces them to improve.
The TTC has spent the last 3 years fiddling with 501 line management, since the first Fix the 501 Forum I’d helped organized in the Fall of 2006.
Only minor improvements to the 501 route have been made. None of them have the potential to return regular streetcar service to Lakeshore.
Furthermore, while you say “You donâ€™t need separate 507 any more”, that’s exactly the point, the 507 will be completely separate from the 501 route, the in town mess of traffic, accidents, delays, & short-turns that result in more than 20% of 501 Long Branch streetcars never going further west of Humber Loop.
2nd Strike – Given that it’ll take the TTC 2 years to study, downplay, then maybe implement some sort of 507 route, that’ll be right on schedule for the return to streetcars to Roncies.
Should a 507 ever be reinstated before then, it could turn around in Roncies car yard. Not ideal, but better than running it in on Queen abit & back on King where it’ll get stuck in traffic no doubt.
3rd Strike – I do agree with you that the TTC’s shortage of streetcars will likely be their excuse to not improve transit service on Lakeshore.
But as in 1st Strike, public pressure is necessary to demand better streetcar service. This will result in political pressure, which may see another source or order of streetcars.
As the TTC’s basically given up on 501 Queen, it’s up to us the riders, store owners, and transit advocates to demand better streetcar service. Because we all know what happens when bussification starts.
So my challenge to you Ed is, are you going to be part of the solution and help demand TTC change, or be one of the grumblers and TTC apologists that says nothing can be done?
4th Strike – As you state, 508 rush hour tripper runs along King Street also get snarled in traffic.
Essentially the City, and the politicians, have to decide if cars are more important than transit.
And if some of the billions being spent on Transit City would be better spent improving in town streetcar service, through transit lanes for rush hour streetcar use, Police or traffic officer enforcement, fine revenue coming to the TTC not to general City coffers, to change driving habits and expectations.
We really need a fundamental change in how transit is dealt with on the streets of the city, at all levels, political, police, revenue, zoning, local enonomy, parking.
5th Strike – “a one-seat-ride downtown (and beyond) along Queen strikes me considerably superior to a one-seat-ride to transfer to the Carlton car at Howard Park.”
You’re missing the point:
A two seat ride (507 + 501) beats a no seat ride (501 only being late or never arriving due to short turn), every time.
Furthermore, taking the 507 to/from Roncesvalles leaves many more transfer opportunities, the Dundas and College cars, and the subway, than being stuck at Queen & Roncies for a 501 or 504 car that may never come.
I would never take that route and then go up Roncy, it would take waaaaay too long. It would be faster and more reliable to take one of the bus routes.
Mike asks: “So my challenge to you Ed is, are you going to be part of the solution and help demand TTC change, or be one of the grumblers and TTC apologists that says nothing can be done?”
I find this kind of insulting. I agree that pressure has to be maintained on the TTC to improve its service, and I have delivered a fair amount myself. However, what we’re pushing for has to be an improvement. After all, the 145 express bus was a response to political pressure and demands that the TTC change and improve service (including, as I recall, from the LPC). Is it useful? Does it help anything? Or was it a misguided idea in the first place?
The assumption of bringing back the 507 seems to be that it will operate magically frequently and reliably, while Queen and King cars will remain useless (“501 or 504 car that may never come”).
I find this very unlikely. Either all the streetcar lines improve, or they all remain bad. (Like the proposed 507, the St. Clair line doesn’t get “stuck in downtown traffic”; how well is it operating?)
The key pressure to bring on the TTC is to improve *all* streetcar lines, including Queen, including King, including St. Clair. From this point of view, “bring back the 507” is a sideshow of questionable merit.
A lot of us go beyond Roncesvalles Ave. and won’t welcome a required disembarking every time we travel east. Memories must be short-the old split streetcar route kept many waiting up to half an hour at the Humber Loop on a regular basis. It was a nightmare. Electricity is dirty fuel. Streetcars break down and snarl routes for hours, leaving passengers waiting with no information on what the holdup is. We need buses on the Lakeshore. The new streetcars will be double the size and won’t come as regularly. Some stops are going to be removed. Is this what we really want?
RE: torbuffchester’s comments
Give your head a shake.
You say; “they want a streetcar, but they donâ€™t want streetcar service”. That makes no sense whatsoever. Where would anyone get such an idea?
The reinstated, revised 507 Route is proposed to supplement and integrate with the existing, pathetic 501 service – not totally replace it. No one ever suggested that the 507 is to totally replace the 501. It would function much like the east and west subway shortcuts to Union Station that are also proposed.
The revised 507 (maybe could be called 507S, for Subway connection, or 507R, for revised or Roncesvalles) would fill in the gaps caused by 501 short-turns or revised 501 scheduling. That is the idea behind it. That way you can reduce ridiculous situations where bunches or packs of streetcars prowl the rails – followed by 45 minutes to an hour of no service (or, like when 7 or more eastbound streetcars travel one after another at midnight). And, it might not hurt to have a couple of streetcars travel the original 507 route just to provide more reliable local service like we historically had.
As for the LRT, there is no reason that proper scheduling of the local streetcar route cannot provide the same service that the LRT is proposed to do – at a massive savings to taxpayers. That is notwithstanding the fact that the 1993 Environmental Assessment for the Lakeshore LRT conclusively determined that an LRT could not be implemented west of Legion Road – due to the severe impact that it would inflict on the main street. That is, most of the mainstreet buildings in Mimico and New Toronto would need to be demolished for an LRT, with that being needed to a lesser extent in Long Branch.
Upgrading the Humber Loop to a larger transit hub makes perfect sense, since the WWLRT could be built along The Queensway out to Sherway Gardens, or even, Mississauga. That is an important missing service link since there will be no subway extension to Sherway (apparently, the City sold a part of the required right-of-way needed for that). Given The Queensway is a lot wider than most of Lake Shore Blvd. West and the significantly increased traffic on that road, it is a logical route for such an upgrade.
You stated “The assumption of bringing back the 507 seems to be that it will operate magically frequently and reliably”
No, the 507 will not be magic. But it will replace the 20% of 501 Queen cars that are scheduled to but do not make it past Humber Loop for being short-turned at rush hour.
The 2 big problems with 501 Queen service west of Roncies are:
1. Short-turned and delayed streetcars
2. Very poor 501 line management
So the LPCs 507 route request will address 1. Once the 507 streetcars are running regularly and reliably along Lakeshore, Queensway, & Roncies, the 2nd point can be focused on, as these 3 streets do not see heavy auto congestion, for the most part.
Part of the Lakeshore Planning Council’s request to the TTC was improve other aspects of the streetcar service to improve mobility:
a request for much better streetcar line management;
a timed transfer along Lakeshore Blvd, like the TTC instituted on St Clair, to encourage streetcar ridership;
an improvement to Lakeshore streetcar service to Transit City Bus Plan standards of minimum 10 minute service at all times.
You also stated “while Queen and King cars will remain useless (â€501 or 504 car that may never comeâ€).”
‘May never come’, my words, is not the same as ‘useless’, your word. Though the 501 service west of Roncies does feel like that alot of time.
AFAIK, LPC didn’t request the 145 Humber Bay Express bus, it was a city councillor, Milcyn I believe.
I take the Queen Car every day to get downtown and sometimes on the weekend. The big advantage to the Queen Car is that there are no transfers. I want the route to remain the same. I agree that the proposal of a reinstatement of the 507 to Dundas West is silly. I was so glad when the TTC did away with the 507. I didn’t appreciate getting dumped at the Humber Loop and waiting forever for the Queen Car. I agree with the previous post that if one needs to get to the subway you can take the Kipling, Islington or Royal York bus. They run frequently. Just fix the 501 streetcar. If necessary add more spur lines to get disabled streetcars off the tracks. Create a streetcar right of way. Go forward with the LRT proposal. It makes sense.
@Queen Car User
The Lakeshore Planning Council is proposing to keep the 501 Queen route all the way to Long Branch, every 2nd car, for just this reason.
The 507 is intended more as a west end streetcar, that happens to end at Dundas West subway station, to give many more transportation options, such as the 506 College, 505 Dundas cars. As well as to give better service on Roncesvalles.
It is interesting to note that when the Toronto & Mimico Electric Railway & Light Company began providing service to the Town of New Toronto in 1893, the service schedule was on a 20-minute basis.
And it was far more reliable than today’s situation.
It is also important to note that many riders wish to go to other destinations than lower downtown. Having an additional route to mid-town simply makes sense (maybe far too much for some).
RE: the 145 Humber Bay Express bus
Comment by Long Branch Mike, January 30
Mike, the 145 Humber Bay Express Bus was initiated to serve the wall of condos on the Motel Strip.
The Humber Bay Shores Condominium Association started to lobby their Councillor, Mark Grimes, almost four years ago for faster and better public transit service. Grimes was instrumental in having the trial service started. It will run for a year.
This was the next effort by the Motel Strip condo residents to get their own bus service to downtown, after they found out they could not have that service provided by a private bus company (that is illegal under Toronto by-laws because it would compete with the TTC).
The problem with serving the Motel Strip condos is that they could not guarantee the sale of a minimum of 40 monthly Metropasses to the almost 10,000 residents on the ‘strip’ – which the TTC required to initiate a new route there.
While a survey of Motel Strip condo residents showed that about 85% of residents claimed they would use a premium 2-fare service, the TTC
said the service would not get more than 40 new riders daily.
TTC Commissioner Peter Milczyn moved the motion to start the express bus trial.
From what I hear, there are few riders from the condo developments using that bus.
So much for all their big talk.
Paul, thanks for the information.
A couple points here:
1) A restored 507 car, hopefully with a time based transfer, will only help local business along the Lake Shore. People will have an option other then their car.
2) Service between the Lake Shore and downtown will still be provided on a “one seat” basis via some 501 cars (the few that actually make in my experience) and the 508 car during the rush hour.
3) Not everyone wants to go to a stop along King or Queen. The restored 507 would allow for connections to the Dundas and Carlton cars, as well as the subway. Yes one can get to the subway via the Shorncliffe, Kipling, Islington, or Royal York buses, but this is another options. And options are a good thing.
4) During the pseudo 507 run in 2007, cars did not always seem to be sitting around in loops or at the Tim Hortons in my experience. This is especially true at Humber – I never saw more than one pseudo 507 at Humber, and I took the time to photograph and ride the car while it was in operation.
5) Service along the 501 is terrible – why should people along the Lake Shore suffer because of that? personally, 99% of my trips downtown are done by GO Train because GO Transit is far more reliable – and that includes getting to locations like the Eaton Centre. It is not only more reliable, but fater as well.
6) A bus is not the answer – fixing the problem is. The problem is that the 501 is simply too long a run to be reliable. A break up of the line like this can only help service as a whole along the line. Cars can get back to the Beaches faster, and the Lake Shore will not be hurt.
The TTC itself admits that a large percentage of the traffic along the Lakeshore never leaves Ward 6. You see it every morning. The streetcar empties at Kipling for students going to school. Another exodus at Mimico Ave. Proper service would increase local usage. The TTC has to do something. 2029 is a long way away. I’d like something in place before I get an Old Age Pension.
I have another long term idea as well for the Waterfront LRT. A partial line is already built. Union Station to the Exhibition already exists. The line could easily be taken to Dufferin along city owned property. The city also owns the land that is now advertising along the edge of the Lakeshore. Run along it underneath Parkdale and come up at Roncesvalles. Have a dedicated light for left turning TTC separate from cars. Currently the 504 and 508 are bottlenecked. crossing the Queensway. Use the existing tracks along the Queensway to the Humber Loop. I believe it would be alot less expensive than their current proposal because so much of it exists.
Right now, I usually bike to work. When I don’t I take the TTC to work. In the morning it is pretty reliable. I never take it home. It can take 90+ minutes to get home from Front and Bathurst. The times I have, I stand with a bunch of others in front of a Coffee Time to see which will come first. The 501 or 508. I take the GO to Long Branch. A twenty minute walk to the Ex, 15 minute walk home and a 13 minute ride are much more convenient.
For those concerend about waiting at Humber – there are options:
There is already a 508 car that provides services from Long Branch into downtown via King Street. If the 501 keeps some cars going to Long Branch (perhaps with a short turn at Church), it would also provide a second “one seat downtown” option. Otherwise, a restored 507 car operating to Dundas West station would provide connections with the 505 and 506 cars, as well as a better connection to the 501 and 504 cars at Roncesvalles.
My point is that the 507 car would provide better service then what is seen now. The TTC claims that a significant number of passengers using the 501 along the Lakeshore are uisng the current service for local needs as well. Why should those passengers be forced to suffer because of problems that occurred downtown?